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 Post subject: Tool for head swap
PostPosted: October 27th, 2018, 2:24 
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Joined: September 14th, 2018, 13:41
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Location: italy
Hi guys, I always used the tool in the picture to head swap, strangely today I had a bad joke. I changed the heads to a 7200.12 seagate by taking a head from a compatible donor. When I removed the head from the donor, the head had a certain drag resistance, as is normal. when I put the head on the patient instead, the head slipped without resistance and after starting the disk did not line up. To make sure that the head was damaged I reassembled it on the donor disk and even here it had no grip anymore, when I started the disk it did not line up. How do you think? I have always used these tools. Do you think I can fix this head? Thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: Tool for head swap
PostPosted: October 27th, 2018, 3:38 
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Joined: June 17th, 2018, 11:43
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Location: spain
I would never use that kind of tool. I think with them you'll break many heads by sliding them across the plate and even the surface of the HDD.
It's just an opinion, just like he knows how to use them but it's not my case.
There are some of HDDOR that are expensive but work very well.
Greetings.

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 Post subject: Re: Tool for head swap
PostPosted: October 27th, 2018, 3:44 
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how tool you suggest


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 Post subject: Re: Tool for head swap
PostPosted: October 27th, 2018, 4:13 
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Joined: June 17th, 2018, 11:43
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Location: spain
https://www.hddor.com/shop/

It's just an opinion, I would not like to be wrong.
Surely someone with more experience can help you more.

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 Post subject: Re: Tool for head swap
PostPosted: October 27th, 2018, 6:55 
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Joined: March 6th, 2010, 3:46
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Location: Kolding | Denmark
+1 would never use a tool like this on a 7200.12
use http://hddsurgery.com/data-recovery-too ... -10-p1-set

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 Post subject: Re: Tool for head swap
PostPosted: October 27th, 2018, 11:00 
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Joined: September 14th, 2018, 13:41
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Location: italy
mhp666 wrote:
https://www.hddor.com/shop/

It's just an opinion, I would not like to be wrong.
Surely someone with more experience can help you more.


someone has ever used it


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 Post subject: Re: Tool for head swap
PostPosted: October 27th, 2018, 11:15 
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Joined: December 8th, 2010, 11:37
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Location: Ottawa, Canada
Or try the Apex Tool Lab C-type tool: https://apextoollab.com/c_type/sea_11es2lp_4.html

It works well on these drives.

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 Post subject: Re: Tool for head swap
PostPosted: October 27th, 2018, 12:44 
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Joined: September 14th, 2018, 13:41
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LarrySabo wrote:
Or try the Apex Tool Lab C-type tool: https://apextoollab.com/c_type/sea_11es2lp_4.html

It works well on these drives.


if you say it's okay I'll buy it, the price seems reasonable, I've seen some of 500 dollars, I understand the accuracy but $ 500 seems a bit 'expensive. I saw that is fine for 4 heads but I can use it for one? at the moment I need it for a head and on the site I have not found for 1 head


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 Post subject: Re: Tool for head swap
PostPosted: October 27th, 2018, 13:30 
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Location: Ottawa, Canada
magnetepazzo wrote:
if you say it's okay I'll buy it, the price seems reasonable, I've seen some of 500 dollars, I understand the accuracy but $ 500 seems a bit 'expensive. I saw that is fine for 4 heads but I can use it for one? at the moment I need it for a head and on the site I have not found for 1 head

I've never used it for one-headed drives but I believe it would be no problem. Ask Andrey, the owner of Apex Tool Labs -- he's very helpful and responsive. My only concern with the tool (and all his tools, really) is that the aluminum is very soft and easily deformed if you are not careful with them. Once you are aware of that and act accordingly, they are excellent. Also bear in mind that the HDDSurgery tools come as a set of two whereas the C-Type tool from Apex is just a single tool. All their other tools come in pairs. Head swap tools are a major expense for DR; it's just part of the business, as are donor drives, laminar flow bench, firmware/DE hardware tools and DR programs. It's no wonder DR is so expensive for the customer.

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 Post subject: Re: Tool for head swap
PostPosted: October 27th, 2018, 13:57 
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Joined: December 12th, 2005, 3:32
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Location: Belgrade
We talk here about tools that have different prices in 1:10 or 1 to 5 ratio.
I did not notice someone lowered down prices cose he used Apex tools rather then Hddsurgery tool.
Reason why Dr is expencive is experience you need to have plus profit company wants to make.
We do both. Data recovery and make tools.
Hardest thing is to improve your skills and invent new solution.
Copying is easy....

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 Post subject: Re: Tool for head swap
PostPosted: October 28th, 2018, 11:51 
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Joined: September 14th, 2018, 13:41
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Location: italy
I see from the nick you're from hddsurgery, frankly I did not name any company I just quoted some prices seen around, it's my personal opinion that $ 500 is too much for a tool, but the question I asked was why there are so many differences in terms of cost between one tool and another. You answered that much depends on the experience, I understand, it certainly has a value but I remain of the opinion that we need to make these instruments less expensive, so we can also increase the investment. it's just my personal opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: Tool for head swap
PostPosted: October 28th, 2018, 12:34 
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Joined: December 12th, 2005, 3:32
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Location: Belgrade
i agree totaly. But thing I do not understand is that you can buy set of 14 tools ( I talk about ramp set ) for 500 euro. You will charge one client ome case that much....
I talked many times before, it is easy to make a copy.
Now we see new drives helium ones, 8tb 16tb ones. Some of them cost 500 euro and more. If you wabt to make tools for them it means you must buy most of them, some in triplets. Then make clasification. What is compatibile with what. What must be same tool what must be different.
Then you must take messurments make cad models, make cam models.
Operating with8 head hdd with calipper inside will damage it ....
Then you must use milling mashine, lathe edm.... ( It is 6 figure mashine costs )
Then make controls, control tools, manuals videos , boxes....
And you need to do it on the same level every day...
Why there is no other tools on the market for new hdd's now?
Someone needs to invest in hdds in engineering in development.
You can not cover this costs with 20 euro tool.
It just does not pay off.
You can put same name as ours and use aluminum that is deformed , bent instead of milled. Then glued...In the end this tool does notneven have 90 degrees angle...
It is not proffesional. If your want to provide best service to your clients then you should use best tools.
This is how i see it. This is how our data recovery company works.
I do not have problem with others doing different. Some things i would not compare. At the end , we made tools so we can use them. If there are tools, that are good we buy them rather then develop them. It is cheeper.
I.e. we canceled our spider board when we sow Ace tools work fine.
We have 300-500 cases per month. 70% of them are phisical. No time for improvisations. If you run one man show, quality is totaly up to you. You can do a good job with no tools at all.
Dont get me wrong I just point my stand. I was collage and user of this forum long time ago before we started making tools and solutions.
Regards
Nikola

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 Post subject: Re: Tool for head swap
PostPosted: October 29th, 2018, 19:18 
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Joined: September 14th, 2018, 13:41
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Location: italy
Hello Nikola, you have been very clear and I share some of your points of reasoning, of course for those on this side as well as those who are on the side of the counter some of these arguments are not made. Obviously a customer does not care if the instrument is a single or rare or made of valuable materials, the customer cares that it works, if an instrument works then regardless of its conceptual structure and material is a tool as valid as a more expensive instrument . Clear that if the tool creates problems then you are fully right across the board. I bought some tools to test some really Chinese manufacture "no offense" for the Chinese friends, and actually I had problems, a tool was too high head damaging, I was therefore looking for the famous "value for money" I do not fully agree your speech on the highest quality, retail customers do not demand the maximum, they often turn to us to get the data only if within a certain range of costs otherwise they say goodbye. Each case is different and each user is different in terms of needs and fussiness, a tool that can allow everyone to be able to do a job well done and to keep the costs affordable would be the best. This is just my thoughts and I do not pretend that you or someone else shares it, it is obvious that if I could choose the maximum without spending a fortune every time I get a different HDD would be the top. Take advantage of this discussion to ask you more information about your products, I need a ramp to seagate barracuda 3.5 "What can you propose with the premises that we said little ago? If you have a kit consisting of common tools for the most known hdd let me know Thank you for your availability
Massimiliano


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 Post subject: Re: Tool for head swap
PostPosted: October 30th, 2018, 3:51 
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Joined: December 12th, 2005, 3:32
Posts: 662
Location: Belgrade
You said many things i will try to cover all.

1. "I could choose the maximum without spending a fortune every time I get a different HDD would be the top"

I.e. this Seagate ramp set that we talk was made 4 years ago. Our development procedures do not allow us to make more then 3 tools per year.
It just takes a lot of time, to make mesurments, projects, documentation, models etc etc. Even manufacturers of hdd's do not change that much disk mechanics.
So it looks like you have not been investing for a long time or you entered data recovery world recently.
Try to think that you run car repair shop. I want tomorrow to be able to open doors and fix all cars i can.
You will get customer with Fiat 127 and with new Gullieta? You must buy set of keys and special tools for old cars but also computers and special tools for new cars. It will cost a forutune. But if you started 30 years ago you just need to buy new OBD or something that will help you in your work. Just a small upgrade. Investing in tools....

2. You ask for a Kit of most common tools. It show me that you do not want to spend time digging dip ( dont get me wrong ). But it is just what producers of cheep tools want. They want that you buy a "SET" of tools and you think you will get something. On the other hand you get 99% of things you do not need, 90% of things that do not work and 0 % of documentation how you can use it. They know it costs more to send it back then to just accept you did a wrong choice.
I guarantee that 90% of this cheep tool clients feel what i just described. Btw it is a reason why we got into this . I got so mad with some stupid tool i bought from them 12 years ago...
It looks simple but you ask ramp for Seagate barracuda 3.5 . This is not even a close to name of hdd, and not even close that you need to choose right tool.
look at the name of tools we gave them.

Sea 3.5 Ramp P2. If you open hdd and look you will know what you need to pick with out looking at documentation or video or anythings else.
But if you look at manual
http://hddsurgery.com/pdfs/HDDS_Sea_3.5_Ramp_Set.pdf
you will see it is all made easy so you can find in 2 clicks what you need.

Can you buy a kit of most common resistors or capacitors. You can but when you need something you do not have you must buy it. Data recovery is special kind of service. It is expert thing. Not like Pc repair or like TV and VCR repair used to be. Tools that we make can be sold in less then 1000 companies. There is not Million of us.
So there is no mass production. If you make a series of 100 200 tools, it will take years to sell it. You can give it away for 1euro there is still only 1000 to 2000 clients.
Not more. It ruins make cheep sell millions strategy , it just does not make equation.

3. If we conclude that Data recovery is very advanced and proffesional service that is charged at much higher rates then any other service in branch. If we agree that prices in countries from Eu or America or some other good economies go sometimes 2-3 times on average wages in not so rich countries and if we have in mind that I still did not sow web site that says

www. XYZ Data recovery. zzz we use poor quality drives and charge you a lot of money for 2 click solutions

Why not try to use best tools there are, there is enough space to buy best tools, to buy good donors. You can not make money from every single job. Some things need investments. This is how I run my data recovery company.
My grandfather used to say , I am not rich enough to buy cheep things.

To conclude, all of us by cheep things first, some of us buy better ones at the end. Some give up in searching in the process.
Our company does not use any other tool then Ace labs. Maybe I am wrong. Time will tell, so far so good.
Inventing tools is expensive, if someone will make tools for big drives now 8 -16Tb that we need, I will be more and happy to spend money for them.

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 Post subject: Re: Tool for head swap
PostPosted: October 30th, 2018, 10:50 
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Joined: February 9th, 2009, 16:13
Posts: 2090
Location: Ontario, Canada
A lot of it comes down to the volume of work you are getting and the price you are charging for the work.

From my perspective, I've been using folded V plastic cut out from clear overhead projector sheets, with a virtually unlimited supply of tools for practically no cost at all. Before HDD Surgery tools and others, the only tools being sold were the those made by HDRC. I'm sure we all ordered some to see if they'd make life easier, but it was very clear, they were and still are garbage. So, this left me with my perfected technique of using self-made, virtually free tools that work most of the time.

Suddenly, appears HDD surgery tools and I'm thinking, wow! Those look awesome. But, when I look at the price, I have to weigh out the pay back and determine if there is enough benefit using them over what I already have. At first, I wasn't convinced that they would make that much difference in the overall scheme of things. But, then I discovered Apex tools at a much lower cost. Basically, I could order virtually all of the Apex tools for a bit more than the cost of single set of HDD Surgery tools.

So, I ordered a full set of Apex tools and can agree, they are not perfect and can be easily bent. When I did find a tool that was deformed right off the start, they sent me a replacement right away and are quite pleasant to work with. By using the Apex tools, my eyes have been opened that these tools can shave 5 minutes off a head change and make it a lot easier for inexperienced techs to do a better job without killing the donor heads in the process.

It is by using the Apex tools that I'm now convinced that the tools from HDD Surgery are worth the investment, although I have yet to purchase any. This is where we loop back to where I started. How many jobs are you getting and how much are you charging for them?

1. If you only change heads a few times a year, Apex tools are likely the better investment, if it doesn't make better sense to just outsource those cases to a lab with more experience.
2. If you are only charging $300 for a head change, unless you have the volume to accompany it, Apex tools probably is all you'll be able to afford.

Now, as far a price is concerned, HDD Surgery has the right to charge what they wish. Do I think that they'd sell more if they charged less, probably. In reality, it might be a smarter move for them to just keep the price up, just as ACE keeps the cost of PC3000 high. It helps keep the industry professional and reduces the number of new companies from entering into the market.

In short. Even a year ago I'd be dead set against buying any tools for head changes and certainly would never entertain HDD Surgery tools. Today, I recognize that I need to budget for them and get them sooner than later. Don't get me wrong, I'm not letting go of my Apex tools.

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 Post subject: Re: Tool for head swap
PostPosted: October 30th, 2018, 11:12 
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Joined: December 12th, 2005, 3:32
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Location: Belgrade
Thing you do not want to say or you do not care is that with out our tools there would not be Apex tools.
They can not develop them for the price they sell them.

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 Post subject: Re: Tool for head swap
PostPosted: October 30th, 2018, 11:29 
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helpdisc wrote:
Thing you do not want to say or you do not care is that with out our tools there would not be Apex tools.
They can not develop them for the price they sell them.

To this I cannot answer. It seems to me that the concept and look of the tools are similar between HDD Surgery and Apex, but their build is distinctly different. Now, with HDDOR, it seems more obvious that they aren't even trying to hide being inspired by HDD Surgery.

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 Post subject: Re: Tool for head swap
PostPosted: October 30th, 2018, 11:35 
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Joined: December 12th, 2005, 3:32
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Location: Belgrade
I do not understand what how do you not get it. Did you read what i wrote?
Lets say, they want to make now tools for new drives? How much money they need to invest just to buy drives?
My guys are opening 8 tb drives as we speak , many of them....someone needs to make models.
It costs money.

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