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 Post subject: Port on 1.8" HDD
PostPosted: May 21st, 2019, 6:51 
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Hello,

I am trying to replace two old 1.8" HDDs with new SSDs. The old HDDs are a Toshiba MK1011GAH and a Toshiba MK1214GAH. They both got an identical 40 pin port (see picture), which I assumed to be a ZIF-Type, because of the black lever on top and the 40 Pins.
So I got two adapters, which each feature a 40 pin ZIF port and a slot for a Msata SSD. Problem is: The computer won't recognise the SSD. Also the 40 pin flat cable, which was attached tightly to the HDD, seems to be too thin for the 40-pin port in the adapter and therefor was not attached proper. I tried to thicken it with electrical tape, and it then was tight, but still no recognition. I also tried to turn the cable around.

My Questions:
1. Does anyone know if the port on the HDD (as in the picture) is in fact a 40-pin ZIF port or something else (like a 40-pin LIF port...I don't know if that exists tho)
2. If it is something else, could it still be possible to use such adapters, as I have bought already. (this means the difference in the ports would only be mechanical and not logical/ the Pin assignment of the ports of HDD and adapter would be identical)

Thanks in advance for every effort you make to answer this.

Julius


Attachments:
File comment: this is the Port of the old HDD
S1050017.JPG
S1050017.JPG [ 4.33 MiB | Viewed 1255 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Port on 1.8" HDD
PostPosted: May 21st, 2019, 7:36 
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Joined: December 4th, 2012, 1:35
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search the forum for this. I am thinking I saw something like this and the 2 hard disks were configured in some kind of RAID to the system. maybe search the HDD model numbers, ZIF and Toshiba. IIRC the O.G. poster was looking for an adapter, or pinout, or trying to do what you are doing and replacing the HDD's.


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 Post subject: Re: Port on 1.8" HDD
PostPosted: May 21st, 2019, 7:43 
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Joined: August 18th, 2010, 17:35
Posts: 3306
Location: Massachusetts, USA
That drive model is definitely a ZIF, not a LIF.
Curious to learn what adapters and SSDs you are using for replacement.
Have any links, please?

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 Post subject: Re: Port on 1.8" HDD
PostPosted: May 21st, 2019, 11:25 
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Joined: May 21st, 2019, 6:10
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Location: Germany
thank you for the answers!

HaQue wrote:
search the forum for this. I am thinking I saw something like this and the 2 hard disks were configured in some kind of RAID to the system. maybe search the HDD model numbers, ZIF and Toshiba. IIRC the O.G. poster was looking for an adapter, or pinout, or trying to do what you are doing and replacing the HDD's.


I did not find this thread.

labtech wrote:
That drive model is definitely a ZIF, not a LIF.


Thank you. Thats one good thing.

labtech wrote:
Curious to learn what adapters and SSDs you are using for replacement.
Have any links, please?


Yes!
Adapter:
https://www.amazon.de/Pxyelec-Adapter-K ... _mk_de_DE=ÅMÅŽÕÑ&keywords=msata+40+pin&qid=1558449320&s=gateway&sr=8-1

SSD:
https://www.amazon.de/Samsung-MZ-M6E250 ... _mk_de_DE=ÅMÅŽÕÑ&keywords=ssd+msata+evo+860&qid=1558450317&s=gateway&sr=8-2

The devices are put into an Sony Vaio VGN-TZ31VN and a similar, bit cheaper Version of it (TZ31MN).

Because the Adapters were cheap I think it would be possible, that they are both not working at all. But I would like to think about other possible problems, before replacing them. As far as I read and understood, the ZIF connectors and cables of different brands can be slightly different. Which would explain, why cable (Sony) and Connector (No Name) did not fit tight. But does that mean, that they might have different pin assignments too? I only found the same out Pinout Scheme for 40-pin ZIF online (as in picture).

Might also be a mistake I made searching for the volume (although I tried different ways and also the Linux terminal, which should show all drives connected (i think)). Gonna check that tomorrow once more.


(I know, that this replacement isn't worth the effort. My boss told me to do it...)


Attachments:
HDR-XR150_155_ZIF_CE_1-8in_HDD-pinout.jpg
HDR-XR150_155_ZIF_CE_1-8in_HDD-pinout.jpg [ 73.35 KiB | Viewed 1183 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Port on 1.8" HDD
PostPosted: May 21st, 2019, 17:46 
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Can you show us hi-res photos of your adapters? I'd like to examine their pinouts.

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 Post subject: Re: Port on 1.8" HDD
PostPosted: May 22nd, 2019, 6:28 
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Thanks for the links.

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 Post subject: Re: Port on 1.8" HDD
PostPosted: May 22nd, 2019, 8:01 
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sorry I had it very, very wrong. I searched and was thinking of this sony one http://forum.hddguru.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18418

I think I was thrown by 2 hard drives and mention of zif..


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 Post subject: Re: Port on 1.8" HDD
PostPosted: May 22nd, 2019, 20:20 
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Google suggests that these Toshiba models were used in Sony SR12E, SR11E and HD620 cameras.

The interface pinout should be in the "SONY HDR-SR11 SR11E SR12 SR12E LEVEL-3 VER-1.2 SM" service manual:

https://elektrotanya.com/?q=showresult&what=SR11E+Sony&kategoria=All&kat2=All

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 Post subject: Re: Port on 1.8" HDD
PostPosted: May 23rd, 2019, 18:12 
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Joined: May 21st, 2019, 6:10
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Location: Germany
Hello!

Thanks for all the answers.

fzabkar wrote:
Can you show us hi-res photos of your adapters? I'd like to examine their pinouts.

I will give you photos as soon as I get the adapters back in my hands, which will be Saturday.

fzabkar wrote:
Google suggests that these Toshiba models were used in Sony SR12E, SR11E and HD620 cameras.

The interface pinout should be in the "SONY HDR-SR11 SR11E SR12 SR12E LEVEL-3 VER-1.2 SM" service manual:

https://elektrotanya.com/?q=showresult&what=SR11E+Sony&kategoria=All&kat2=All

Thank you for the link! I got the document, searched through it and found only two connectors with 40 Pins within. They have the same pin assignement and belong to two different boards in the camera, which made me belive, that they may be connected to each other. Also their pin assignment seems to be quit different to the one I saw of another 1.8" HDD. On the other hand there is a pin with the name CMOS_A_3.3V, which fits the 3.3V of the HDD. I got screenshots of the schemes, because I did not really understand much of it. Maybe you can get something out of it.


Attachments:
ScreenshotPinout1.PNG
ScreenshotPinout1.PNG [ 95.78 KiB | Viewed 1004 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Port on 1.8" HDD
PostPosted: May 23rd, 2019, 18:15 
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Upps... forgot the other pics


Attachments:
File comment: VC-516 BOARD (SIDE A)
ScreenshotPinout4.PNG
ScreenshotPinout4.PNG [ 505.33 KiB | Viewed 1004 times ]
ScreenshotPinout3.PNG
ScreenshotPinout3.PNG [ 136.74 KiB | Viewed 1004 times ]
ScreenshotPinout2.PNG
ScreenshotPinout2.PNG [ 125.33 KiB | Viewed 1004 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Port on 1.8" HDD
PostPosted: May 23rd, 2019, 18:19 
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Joined: May 21st, 2019, 6:10
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this is ridiculous...the second message got through and the first must be approved. I guess you just have to wait for it than...sorry

edit: nevermind :)


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 Post subject: Re: Port on 1.8" HDD
PostPosted: May 23rd, 2019, 18:36 
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Level 3 of the manual refers back to page 4-40 of the Level 2 manual:
https://elektrotanya.com/sony_hdr-sr11_sr12_level2_ver1.2.pdf/download.html


Attachments:
SR11E_HDD_40-pin_ZIF_pinout.GIF
SR11E_HDD_40-pin_ZIF_pinout.GIF [ 60.14 KiB | Viewed 995 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Port on 1.8" HDD
PostPosted: May 23rd, 2019, 19:23 
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Snowman wrote:
... the 40 pin flat cable, which was attached tightly to the HDD, seems to be too thin for the 40-pin port in the adapter and therefor was not attached proper. I tried to thicken it with electrical tape, and it then was tight, but still no recognition.

Sorry if I'm stating the obvious, but did you lock the cable with the locking tab?

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 Post subject: Re: Port on 1.8" HDD
PostPosted: May 24th, 2019, 17:01 
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Joined: March 19th, 2011, 18:47
Posts: 55
Location: The Netherlands
(I'm writing all of this because I'm assuming you still want to replace the HDDs with SSDs and keep all changes disk-side instead of device-side)


I have recovered some data off of this type of drive connection; the problem you're facing is the non-standard ZIF FFC thickness (or thinness?).
The interface is relatively standard (also used in a number of older HP tablet notebooks, the ones with the rotating screens), but the connectors and cables are not easy to get to work reliably. What I ended up doing is getting a FFC that is slightly too thin, and then using 0.1mm (or was it 0.025mm? was years ago...) kapton tape to add layers until it's the same snugness as the normal cable.

fzabkar wrote:
Snowman wrote:
... the 40 pin flat cable, which was attached tightly to the HDD, seems to be too thin for the 40-pin port in the adapter and therefor was not attached proper. I tried to thicken it with electrical tape, and it then was tight, but still no recognition.

Sorry if I'm stating the obvious, but did you lock the cable with the locking tab?


The connectors are not located using standard pitch-to-ffc-edge distance because they used to be multi-use cables (both no-lock ZIF and back-lock ZIF), if you use a softer tape like PVC tape it won't locate properly and either short or shift to the space between the pins. The pin pitch on 1.8" ZIF HDDs from that era usually doesn't reliably match with a back-lock ZIF connector you get on ZIF-to-mSATA carrier boards, because those are usually for the thicker ZIF connectors.

The cable between the host device and the disk itself is often custom in the device end, so that's not always possible. In those cases, you can use an extension board (yep, those exist for some reason), they come with a small board which has four or two types of connectors, a standard lockable (back flip or front flip lock available) and a ZIF-no-lock one, and you get a standard cable. this then allows you to chain them together (unless you want to make a custom PCB). In your case, you get:

Host device -> FFC -> extender -> FFC -> FFC-to-SATA/mSATA -> SSD

All in, this is often still smaller than the 1.8" HDD, so it fits in the space where it's normally located, as long as there is no mechanical stress.

While I did this as a no-warranty hack job for this customer (after the recovery, they wanted to re-use the device, which was over 7 years old at that point), for production use I'd recommend spinning your own PCB with the correct connector on board.

Those boards look like this:
Image

Keep in mind that signal integrity gets bad somewhat quickly on those, so don't use the long cables if you can, and PCBs with shorter tracks are preferred over longer tracks. Also, making an FFC thinner is a really bad idea, making one ticker is much more safe, even if it means that you need to adapt a tick one to a thin connector to then thicken up an FFC later on. Custom FFCs on older devices are almost never replaceable, and reverse engineering them is usually no longer feasible if the materials used are no longer available.


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 Post subject: Re: Port on 1.8" HDD
PostPosted: May 24th, 2019, 19:27 
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If the adapter uses JMicron's JM20330A bridge IC (limited to 1.5Gbps), then it may have problems negotiating a SATA link with some 3Gbps or 6Gbps SSDs.

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 Post subject: Re: Port on 1.8" HDD
PostPosted: May 24th, 2019, 19:42 
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Same goes for older ASMedia chips when combined with longer/lossy cables. They usually just implement them from reference designs which don't really do well in such cases.

Edit: or Marvell. Not sure. There was another one besides JMicron with persistent issues when combining IDE with new SSDs.

Point is the same as fzabkar: the cable might be good with a squeeze fit but the controller might still not work on the SATA side.


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 Post subject: Re: Port on 1.8" HDD
PostPosted: May 25th, 2019, 11:21 
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fzabkar wrote:
Level 3 of the manual refers back to page 4-40 of the Level 2 manual:
https://elektrotanya.com/sony_hdr-sr11_sr12_level2_ver1.2.pdf/download.html

oh thank you, I didn't got this.

fzabkar wrote:
Sorry if I'm stating the obvious, but did you lock the cable with the locking tab?

Yes.

johnkeates wrote:
I have recovered some data off of this type of drive connection; the problem you're facing is the non-standard ZIF FFC thickness (or thinness?).
The interface is relatively standard (also used in a number of older HP tablet notebooks, the ones with the rotating screens), but the connectors and cables are not easy to get to work reliably. What I ended up doing is getting a FFC that is slightly too thin, and then using 0.1mm (or was it 0.025mm? was years ago...) kapton tape to add layers until it's the same snugness as the normal cable.

The connectors are not located using standard pitch-to-ffc-edge distance because they used to be multi-use cables (both no-lock ZIF and back-lock ZIF), if you use a softer tape like PVC tape it won't locate properly and either short or shift to the space between the pins. The pin pitch on 1.8" ZIF HDDs from that era usually doesn't reliably match with a back-lock ZIF connector you get on ZIF-to-mSATA carrier boards, because those are usually for the thicker ZIF connectors.

Thank you for the tip. I will try to thicken the FFC with Kapton tape instead.

johnkeates wrote:
The cable between the host device and the disk itself is often custom in the device end, so that's not always possible. In those cases, you can use an extension board (yep, those exist for some reason), they come with a small board which has four or two types of connectors, a standard lockable (back flip or front flip lock available) and a ZIF-no-lock one, and you get a standard cable. this then allows you to chain them together (unless you want to make a custom PCB).

The FFC built in the device seems to be indeed custom. But I don't think, that I will need an extension board, since the FFC is already thinner, than the Port at the Adapter. Or did I miss something?

fzabkar wrote:
If the adapter uses JMicron's JM20330A bridge IC (limited to 1.5Gbps), then it may have problems negotiating a SATA link with some 3Gbps or 6Gbps SSDs.

That would be too bad. 1.5Gbps is not the speed you want to connect a SSD...(although I didn't expected much speed)
I got you the Hi-Res pictures, maybe you could get something out of them.


Thank you all for your help. I really appreciate it!


Attachments:
File comment: FFC of the device
IMG_1082.JPG
IMG_1082.JPG [ 1.67 MiB | Viewed 829 times ]
IMG_1084.JPG
IMG_1084.JPG [ 1.49 MiB | Viewed 829 times ]
File comment: Sorry for the small DOF
IMG_1074.JPG
IMG_1074.JPG [ 4.75 MiB | Viewed 829 times ]
IMG_1064.JPG
IMG_1064.JPG [ 5.84 MiB | Viewed 829 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Port on 1.8" HDD
PostPosted: May 25th, 2019, 17:36 
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Can you pull back the QC sticker?


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 Post subject: Re: Port on 1.8" HDD
PostPosted: May 25th, 2019, 17:37 
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The pinout of the bridge IC (U2) matches the pinout of the JM20330/JM20330A.

http://www.users.on.net/~fzabkar/temp/JM20330_Spec_Rev.-2.3.pdf

Attachment:
JM20330-datasheet-pinout.gif
JM20330-datasheet-pinout.gif [ 25.93 KiB | Viewed 820 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Port on 1.8" HDD
PostPosted: May 25th, 2019, 17:41 
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Looking at the picture from the device FFC: it's too short to make good contact in your ZIF connector.


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