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 Post subject: Windows nt4 scsi hard drive problem
PostPosted: August 15th, 2019, 10:42 
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Joined: August 15th, 2019, 10:29
Posts: 5
Location: Finland
Hi,
I tried to take a copy of a Scsi hard drive, which is used in a "homag" woodworking router. The router runs on Windows nt4. Would have been nice to have a copy in case of a hard drive failure.

I used HDD Raw Copy Tool to take an image of the machines hard drive. This was run on a Windows 10 pc with a Scsi card in a pci express slot.

I didnt do anything else for the drive than use it as a source for the image.

After the image creation was finished, i turned off the computer and put the scsi hdd back to the router machine.

To my surprise it gave an error i have never seen before, like the boot sector would be somehow screwn over.
The error it gives is attached as a picture in this message.

I have a windows nt cd, which belongs to this machine, but the machine is unable to boot to the cd. The bios is set to boot from cd.
All it does, says on the startup something like: "A bootable cd detected", but does not boot there, so i could try fixing the problem from there.
The router machines computer is an industrial pc called "Eltec eipc-2".

Any suggestions?

I find this weird as i only used the hdd to take the image, and pulled it back out. Can windows 10 somehow automatically go and screw up something?

If anyone knows how to fix such a thing i am willing to pay.

Thank you.

Arto Tuisku, Finland.


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File comment: The blue screen error
IMG_20190815_172456.jpg
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 Post subject: Re: Windows nt4 scsi hard drive problem
PostPosted: August 15th, 2019, 12:00 
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Joined: May 13th, 2019, 7:50
Posts: 133
Location: Nederland
Yes, Windows 10 can do that. Might be the MBR messed up, but also boot files (boot.ini). Something simple as a win98 boot diskette with Fdisk.exe (fdisk/mbr) may or may not fix it.

https://www.allbootdisks.com/download/98.html

Next thing is to check is if partition table looks ok and if there's an active partition set. The active partition should be the one containing NT's boot files (ntdetect, ntoskrl, boot.ini). And then boot.ini should point to partition containing the windows system folder.

But this is knowledge from a long time ago which ma or may not be correct.

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 Post subject: Re: Windows nt4 scsi hard drive problem
PostPosted: August 15th, 2019, 16:48 
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Joined: March 4th, 2019, 8:33
Posts: 71
fdisk ?
bad idea !


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 Post subject: Re: Windows nt4 scsi hard drive problem
PostPosted: August 15th, 2019, 18:58 
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Joined: September 8th, 2009, 18:21
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Location: Australia
Am I correct in assuming that the BSOD screen shows the router with only your HDD connected? If so, then it appears to have started booting from the HDD, but has subsequently encountered a disc error during the boot process.

Have you tried copying your disc image to a new drive and then booting from that?

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 Post subject: Re: Windows nt4 scsi hard drive problem
PostPosted: August 15th, 2019, 19:42 
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Joined: December 4th, 2012, 1:35
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Location: Adelaide, Australia
does the PC have a PCI controller? did you put it back in the exact same location (same port, cable)?

if yes, try moving it, if no, try putting back exactly where it was.

is your SCSI termination correct? I have shivers remembering some of the hassles we had when SCSI CD burners came out, and the hodge-podge systems we built back then..ughh..


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 Post subject: Re: Windows nt4 scsi hard drive problem
PostPosted: August 15th, 2019, 19:57 
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Joined: May 13th, 2019, 7:50
Posts: 133
Location: Nederland
HaspHL wrote:
fdisk ?
bad idea !


Oh. The fdisk bad idea reflex.

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 Post subject: Re: Windows nt4 scsi hard drive problem
PostPosted: August 16th, 2019, 2:58 
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Joined: August 15th, 2019, 10:29
Posts: 5
Location: Finland
Arch Stanton wrote:
Yes, Windows 10 can do that. Might be the MBR messed up, but also boot files (boot.ini). Something simple as a win98 boot diskette with Fdisk.exe (fdisk/mbr) may or may not fix it.

https://www.allbootdisks.com/download/98.html

Next thing is to check is if partition table looks ok and if there's an active partition set. The active partition should be the one containing NT's boot files (ntdetect, ntoskrl, boot.ini). And then boot.ini should point to partition containing the windows system folder.

But this is knowledge from a long time ago which ma or may not be correct.


The partition table looks ok and the boot files are there. I will check where the boot.ini points.

fzabkar wrote:
Am I correct in assuming that the BSOD screen shows the router with only your HDD connected? If so, then it appears to have started booting from the HDD, but has subsequently encountered a disc error during the boot process.

Have you tried copying your disc image to a new drive and then booting from that?



There is also a cd drive and floppy drive connected. It seems to be booting on the hdd yes.

Yes i have tried to put the image on another hard disk, the result is the same.

HaQue wrote:
does the PC have a PCI controller? did you put it back in the exact same location (same port, cable)?

if yes, try moving it, if no, try putting back exactly where it was.

is your SCSI termination correct? I have shivers remembering some of the hassles we had when SCSI CD burners came out, and the hodge-podge systems we built back then..ughh..


I have tried putting it back to the same and to a different slot, with everything being exactly the same.

I have not changed anything that would have to do with scsi termination.


I assume if i could get this thing booting on the cd i could fix it. I even have a homag specific service cd which contains all the system needed for the machine, the cd is new. Any ideas on that? the cd drive was seemingly working, as it read files from a cd on a desktop environment. Tried it when was still able to get there :P.

Thank you everyone for your answers, Please keep them coming if anything comes to your mind.


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 Post subject: Re: Windows nt4 scsi hard drive problem
PostPosted: August 17th, 2019, 7:50 
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Joined: December 4th, 2012, 1:35
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Location: Adelaide, Australia
I guess you could try getting another disk working, then copying over all the files to the new one from the old. But not messing with boot files of course. You have a disk image that you can mount to copy files from.

I am guessing you need the CNC program and any associated scripts/programs that were saved?


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 Post subject: Re: Windows nt4 scsi hard drive problem
PostPosted: August 19th, 2019, 9:35 
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Joined: August 15th, 2019, 10:29
Posts: 5
Location: Finland
Hello,
Got the problem solved with a bit of luck.
Apparently win10 somehow installs the device for itself, making changes to the hdd.

The way it got solved i went in the Computer management->disk management->Right click the correct drive from list->properties->hardware-> choose the drive from list and click properties->Driver-> Uninstall device.

Than turn off the computer and plug the hdd out before rebooting, to avoid win 10 write stuff there again.

Must say i am relieved as this computer is running a vitally important machine for my company.

Thanks for everyone involved, your helpfullness is greately appreciated.


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 Post subject: Re: Windows nt4 scsi hard drive problem
PostPosted: August 19th, 2019, 16:51 
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Joined: September 8th, 2009, 18:21
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Location: Australia
Don't you just hate Microsoft?!

Thanks for the update.

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 Post subject: Re: Windows nt4 scsi hard drive problem
PostPosted: August 20th, 2019, 6:21 
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Joined: August 15th, 2019, 10:29
Posts: 5
Location: Finland
Kinda yeah, even tho i am pleasantly surprised there was an "easy" way to fix the damage.


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 Post subject: Re: Windows nt4 scsi hard drive problem
PostPosted: August 20th, 2019, 8:06 
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Joined: April 3rd, 2011, 0:19
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Location: Providence, RI
This sort of thing is why I prefer to use Linux to clone the occasional odd, mission-critical device

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 Post subject: Re: Windows nt4 scsi hard drive problem
PostPosted: August 21st, 2019, 2:56 
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Joined: August 15th, 2019, 10:29
Posts: 5
Location: Finland
data-medics wrote:
This sort of thing is why I prefer to use Linux to clone the occasional odd, mission-critical device


Came to my mind a few times also during the process :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Windows nt4 scsi hard drive problem
PostPosted: April 11th, 2020, 17:26 
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Joined: April 25th, 2008, 9:49
Posts: 25
Keep a note on the model number of the HDD. Most SCSI HHD were built to last a long time. If it does fail you'll need to shop for a replacement or similar model. This a good place to start your search as many data recovery people have an inventory of spares.

I've always done disk to disk copies and only trusted those when copy would boot up and run the process(es). IMHO


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