Just got this from seagate.




What is 4K sector format?
4K sector format is a new industry-wide standard that changes the physical sector size on hard disk drives from 512 bytes to 4K bytes. This new format yields incremental capacity and error correction efficiencies for the hard drive.

Why was the new format needed?
As demand for hard drive capacity over the last thirty years has moved from megabytes to gigabytes to terabytes, the 512 byte legacy sector size has proved a bottleneck for the design of better and bigger hard drives. The technology has changed but the formatting has remained the same. All this is about to change with the introduction of 4K sector formatting industry-wide.

How will customers benefit?
Users can put more data on the disk and benefit from improved error correction because adopting 4K sectors saves up to eight times the space. With 512 byte formatting each sector has a marker showing where it begins, an area dedicated to storing error correction codes and a tiny gap between sectors. In larger drives this wasted space occupies a significant proportion of the drive.

When will 4K sector format be introduced?
Seagate®, as part of the industry standard body which developed 4K sector formatting, will ensure all new hard drive models shipped to the distribution market after January 2011 are 4K sector compliant.

Does 4K sector format work with current operating systems?
Operating systems released after September 2009 have been designed for this new format and are all 4K aware. These include Windows 7, Vista, OS X Tiger, Leopard, Snow Leopard and versions of the Linux kernel.

What about Windows XP?
Older operating systems like Windows XP released before the 4K format was agreed require additional support. To help Windows XP cope, 4K sector format drives can ‘pretend’, with 512 byte emulation, that they still use 512 byte sectors.

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Interesting. Is seagate implying that their 4K sector drives do not always emulate 512-byte sectors? We know that's what the current WD 4K drives do.

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My understanding is the the current WD 4K sector drives have firmware that helps with the 4K -> 512byte translation, but after 2010 that is not required anymore and XP gets "tough love".

Jan 1st 2011 all drives manufactured will be 4K (unless a manufacturer decides to continue making some 512byte ones)

Actually, what I 'need to know' is how to set up traditional partitions such that the new 4 KB sector drives will work well with them - I'm not interested in using a utility like WD's to move them around later.

My impression is that you can handle pre-Vista NTFS (and Linux) partitions with cluster sizes that are multiples of 4 KB just by ensuring that the first sector of the partition (not including the MBR or EPBR track that may precede it) begins at a 4 KB boundary, because the file system clusters are aligned on 4 KB boundaries with respect to the beginning of the partition. I think FAT file systems don't follow the same practice, though - and while in both cases the offset of the file clusters can be controlled by a VBR parameter (for that matter, so can the size of the MBR 'track', I think - by an internal MBR parameter) it's probably safer not to change it to something non-standard (that might give conventional software fits - as already occurs when mixing use of pre-Vista Disk Management with 4-KB-aligned partitions and when mixing Vista/Win7 Disk Management with traditional partitions: in both cases you can wind up losing data because of incompatible handling) but rather to set up the partition start locations to make everything else 'just work' (that is, after all, the approach that WD takes). (Edit: You still have to tweak the Vista/Win7 Registry to make it play nice with the traditional layout, but at least that's possible.)

Just setting up some old-style partitions and checking the disk addresses of file clusters might be sufficient to ascertain what the default offsets are, but I'd feel better having something more authoritative to go by. If 4 KB sector drives ever stop offering to simulate 512 byte sectors older operating systems will be up the creek, but until then it would be nice to allow them to make good use of the newer drives.

Sorry if this is too 'soft' for this forum, but the topic's title had raised my hopes for that kind of information.

Correct me if I am wrong, but after reading this article on 4k sectors:
http://seagate.com/docs/pdf/whitepaper/ ... ectors.pdf
I assume that it is possible to align Advanced Format drives (those ones, which are not provided with a special aligning software by HD manufacturer) for Windows XP usage with 3rd party 4k-aware partitioning utility:
"The most critical aspect of a smooth and successful transition to 4K sectors used in Advanced Format is to promote the use of 4K-aware hard drive partitioning tools."
"When using third-party software or utilities to create hard drive partitions, check with your vendor to make sure they are updated and confirmed to be 4K aware."
http://seagate.com/docs/pdf/whitepaper/ ... ectors.pdf

So to align properly for Win XP usage for example Samsung 2TB F4EG HD204UI one has to find a 3rd party software tool for partitioning, which is 4k-aware, and use that software to partition such disk instead of Windows XP Disk Manager.

Are there any free 4k-aware partitioning tools for Windows XP?

Also would re-aligning utilities provided by WD and Seagate work with other manufacturers HDs like Samsung?

From that article I learnt also that even the newer OSes like Windows 7 do not use 4k sectors directly, they still have to use 512 B sectors. Those newer systems are only capable of aligning Advanced Format hard drives properly during their partitioning, without the need to use 3rd party 4K-aware partitioning software, and that's all:
"there are many aspects of modern computing systems that continue to assume that sectors are always 512 bytes. To transition the entire industry over to the new 4K standard and expect all of these legacy assumptions to suddenly change is simply not realistic. Over time, the implementation of native 4K sectors, where both host and hard drive exchange data in 4K blocks, will take place. Until then, hard drive manufacturers will implement the 4K sector transition in conjunction with a technique called 512-byte sector emulation."
http://seagate.com/docs/pdf/whitepaper/ ... ectors.pdf

"The sector size increase, described by Advanced Format, occurs at the hard drive media level. Host systems will continue to request and receive data from the hard drive in 512-byte sector sizes. However, the translation from 4096-byte sectors in the hard drive to the 512-byte sectors in the host will be managed in the hard drive. This process is called 512-byte emulation. It’s important that every drive partition start with an LBA offset that is aligned to the drive’s physical 4K sector. If partitions are un-aligned, then hard drive performance will be degraded."
"How can partition misalignment conditions be managed?
The first management step is to avoid misaligned conditions in the first place. This can be achieved by creating hard drive partitions with a 4K aware version of your operating system or through a hard drive imaging software product."
"The second method to managing misaligned partitions is to use partition-alignment software to identify and fix misaligned partitions. This technique should be used during the hard drive integration process."
http://seagate.com/docs/pdf/whitepaper/ ... on_faq.pdf

"It’s not practical to make host computer systems talk in 4K native language – at least for a while. There are just too many places the 512 byte assumption is embedded. So, while hard drives will transition to 4K sectors physical sectors on the media, they will still “look and talk” like 512 byte formats to host computers. They will actually emulate 512 byte communications to hosts. This works well as long as the logical 512 byte assumptions from the host computer are aligned with the 4K sectors on the hard drive."
"It turns out that when a hard drive partition is created, the starting position can vary. A 4K drive format is set to work under the assumption that the first 512 byte sector (Logical Block Address = 0) will align perfectly with the first physical 4K sector".
"Alignment 0 ... works well for hard drives & 512 byte emulation because they can neatly map eight 512 byte logical blocks into a single sector. Sometimes hard drive partitions get created so the logical to physical alignment is off...".
"This is called Alignment 1 and it’s not so good for 4K drives when it comes to emulating 512 byte legacy sectors, especially when writing data. Essentially, this alignment can often cause a hard drive to manage a write with extra disc rotations, which slows things down. The results can be sort of dramatic as shown by these test results at HOTHARDWARE.com:
http://hothardware.com/Articles/WDs-1TB ... on/?page=2 "
"The Windows XP situation seems fairly well understood in the marketplace. What is much less understood is the situation with cloning and imaging software. System builders, integrators and IT organizations frequently rely on these tools to configure systems for sale or deployment in their organization. Even if you are using Windows Vista or Windows 7, if your hard drive was partitioned with one of these utilities, you’re likely to end up with an un-aligned partition with the potential for poor performance."
http://consumer.media.seagate.com/2010/ ... ve-primer/

Video on 4K sectors:
http://www.techinsight.tv/seagate-on-4k-technology.html
http://usingwindowshomeserver.com/2010/ ... rd-drives/
Seagate manages aligment problems in the background without any interaction or knowledge of user.

BTW, a warning against 2TB hard drives:
http://www.clearfoundation.com/componen ... 489/#15489

M$ about Advanced Format drives:
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/982018/en-us
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/2385637/en-us

See also other 512e topics in the forum

I have a question, recently got an SSD and somehow using Acronis got the Alignment out of whack even following their cloning procedures for these drives. I went ahead an purchased Paragon Alignment tool to correct the disk. The catch is the tool showed a number of my other drives out of alignment, all of which had been formated using Windows 7 which should automatically set the sector size correct. Since I had the tool to correct and it reported them being misaligned I went ahead and ran it. Now my concern is that those drives are not advanced format drives and may experience a performance hit rather than a benefit. Is it ok to run a drive designed for 512 byte sectors and have it aligned for 4K or does that cause a negative impact. If so I have a beef with Paragon as their utility is recommending that drives be aligned that shouldn't be. I dont suppose their is an easy way to undo that change either. On one of the disks I plan to image it to an SSD so it will be prepped for that and can be reformated if needed. I just dont want to use the utility on any of my other drives until I know if its a benefit or negative. I guess benching them before an after and running backups may be the only way unless someone knows the answer to this. I havent found much info on setting sectors of older drives to 4096. Thanks!

Try asking Acronis and Paragon those interesting questions. It is weird that after partitioning under Win 7 Paragon still reports it as non-aligned. They should explain why.

I just read on one of the other forums that the Paragon Tool will tell you old drives need to be aligned when in-fact they do not. Only newer drives with Advanced formatting/SSD's need this. It irks me that the tool tells you drives need to be aligned when they don't. My large 2TB drive showed up as aligned which is one of my newest disks. The big question now is do I need to put my data back the way it was for optimal performance. I have a couple tickets in with Paragon but so far they havent responded back. I dont mind the larger sector size as long as it doesn't cause issues. Im my case it wont be too big an issue as I will only have one drive that I cant easily re-adjust with a restored image. Still why take the risk of data loss when aligning if its not even a benefit. The designers of the tool should have an advanced mode, and give the customer the ability to select sector size or ask if the disk is a legacy drive. Just my 2 cents! I was wondering why so many of my disks were listed out of whack when everything I've read says Win7 does this automatically.

Perhaps you partitioned those old HDs under older system than Win 7, hence they are not aligned?

It seems that also non Advanced Format drives would benefit from aligning:
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/jimmymay/archiv ... plate.aspx
(I assume that this articke is about non Advanced Format drives)
If so, then it is correct that your software reports that they are not aligned (if you run that software again after aligning does it report that those disks are aligned?).

An article about Advanced Format drives:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/2888

Just a little something about the "Error Correction Efficiencies"

Hard drives (and most other ECC enabled devices) use what's called Hamming Code

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamming_code

512 bytes is 4096 bits is 2^12 so you need 13 hamming bits to correct 1 bit corruption or detect 2 bit corruption.
4096 bytes is 32768 bits is 2^15 so you need 16 hamming bits to correct a 1 bit corruption or detect a 2 bit corruption.

So per 4K, 512 byte sectors need 52 bits vs the 16 needed for 4096.

However, this of course introduces a higher overhead for calculating the hamming code. Because now calculating the hamming code requires 8 times as many calculations. So for small reads this could introduce a performance penalty perhaps, probably not something that one can notice though, because xor operations are very fast in machine code.

hi my friends. i have two seagate hhd model barracuda ST1000DM003 one under O.S WinXp and other in winserver 2003. i need alignment tool for this hdd. any tools of paragon not work and acronis not work. My motherboar is INTEL DH61BE whit core i5 2 GB ram and the power support is Cooler master 500w. The problem is the hdd freezer whith out reason. I need help and thank for your help.

No, you don't need an alignment tool for the symptom which you describe - alignment problems do not cause HDDs to "freeze" (however you have diagnosed that); non-4k alignment just causes lower performance (and slightly increased mechanical wear).

Therefore based on your description of the symptom, you have a different problem and not the one you thought you had. Note the rules for this part of the forum mean that you cannot discuss individual problems in this section. If you want help with your problem, then as a start I suggest you post a new thread in the hard-disk-drives-data-recovery-and-repair-f1.html section, including the full history of these drives (where did you get them? have they ever performed as expected? etc. etc.), clear info about the results of every test you have done with these drives so far, and the full SMART data from these drives (including the raw values). Then you may get some replies in that thread.

Vulcam thank and sorry for post here.

I read Win7 development ended july 13 2009, and was available through msdn on august 6. According to what op posted this means win7 without sp1 will not be prepared for 4k/512e disks?

So..there is nothing we can do about this kind of policy? I have an Latitude XT notebook with 18" IDE sport for hard drive. I bought an 1.8" hard drive (Toshiba MK2431GAH).

Unfortunately i cannot install on this hard drive Windows XP. (only vista, seven and windows . I need to run XP on this notebook - i used on car diagnostics and most of the tools for that business run better in XP environment.

If i start installation of Windows XP, it doesn't even see internal hard drive on text setup part. There isn't any solution? I think this hard drive is 4k native (it doesn't emulate 512 bytes sectors).
.
I read on some HP notes that it can be made an image with XP installed and ported to 4k hard drive I cannot find any software (as Norton ghost for example) that can work directly with 4k sectors hard drive.

What are my options? (another hard drive is excluded ).

any or all of these should work:

option 1, run win7 and "xp mode".
option 2, run VMware with win7 Host and XP Guest.
option 3, buy a Hard Disk that works in your laptop.

most times this is a fallacy. It either runs or it doesnt.

Granted alot of the diagnostic stuff is utter rubbish in regards to the way it was developed, but most of the time it can run in win7.

http://www.semicon.toshiba.co.jp/produc ... d18_31.pdf

Bytes per sector (HOST) - 512
Bytes per sector (DISK) - 4096

Logical Blocks (LBA) - 468,862,128

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So theoretically it emulate (at least Datasheet say so). So why XP doesnt see that hard drive? Any ideea?