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 Post subject: Re: 4K SECTOR FORMATTING – WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW
PostPosted: August 27th, 2013, 18:22 
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- bill wrote:
Actually, what I 'need to know' is how to set up traditional partitions such that the new 4 KB sector drives will work well with them - I'm not interested in using a utility like WD's to move them around later.

My impression is that you can handle pre-Vista NTFS (and Linux) partitions with cluster sizes that are multiples of 4 KB just by ensuring that the first sector of the partition (not including the MBR or EPBR track that may precede it) begins at a 4 KB boundary, because the file system clusters are aligned on 4 KB boundaries with respect to the beginning of the partition. I think FAT file systems don't follow the same practice, though - and while in both cases the offset of the file clusters can be controlled by a VBR parameter (for that matter, so can the size of the MBR 'track', I think - by an internal MBR parameter) it's probably safer not to change it to something non-standard (that might give conventional software fits - as already occurs when mixing use of pre-Vista Disk Management with 4-KB-aligned partitions and when mixing Vista/Win7 Disk Management with traditional partitions: in both cases you can wind up losing data because of incompatible handling) but rather to set up the partition start locations to make everything else 'just work' (that is, after all, the approach that WD takes). (Edit: You still have to tweak the Vista/Win7 Registry to make it play nice with the traditional layout, but at least that's possible.)

Just setting up some old-style partitions and checking the disk addresses of file clusters might be sufficient to ascertain what the default offsets are, but I'd feel better having something more authoritative to go by. If 4 KB sector drives ever stop offering to simulate 512 byte sectors older operating systems will be up the creek, but until then it would be nice to allow them to make good use of the newer drives.

Sorry if this is too 'soft' for this forum, but the topic's title had raised my hopes for that kind of information.


Aligning the partitions with the sectors on 4K drives is really only an issue on SSD's. And even then if your installing a modern OS fresh on it, it shouldn't have any issues.

If however you're imaging an existing drive onto an SSD you will want to use an SSD migration tool to be sure it is aligned properly and not causing extra iops.

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 Post subject: Re: 4K SECTOR FORMATTING – WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW
PostPosted: August 27th, 2013, 18:44 
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bubu782001 wrote:
Quote:
Bytes per sector (HOST) - 512
Bytes per sector (DISK) - 4096


So theoretically it emulate (at least Datasheet say so). So why XP doesnt see that hard drive? Any ideea?


The drives normally have a sticker to say go to their website so that you can see what if any extra steps are needed to use the drive. did you do that


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 Post subject: Re: 4K SECTOR FORMATTING – WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW
PostPosted: August 27th, 2013, 18:54 
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bubu782001 wrote:
Quote:
Bytes per sector (HOST) - 512
Bytes per sector (DISK) - 4096


So theoretically it emulate (at least Datasheet say so). So why XP doesnt see that hard drive? Any ideea?

Dell's driver page seems to suggest that Windows XP was a supported platform for the Latitude XT.

ftp://ftp.dell.com/Pages/Drivers/latitude-xt-all.html

The following section suggests that the standard drives were Samsung 1.8" PATA/ZIF models:
ftp://ftp.dell.com/Pages/Drivers/latitu ... Historical IDE and EIDE

So, no, I can't answer your question.

I'd be looking at your BIOS setup, and I'd also be examining the resources (IRQ, DMA, IO ports) in Device Manager (in Vista/Win7/Win8). Examine the properties of the IDE port (eg PCI Vendor and Device ID). Try refreshing the device list in Device Manager.

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 Post subject: Re: 4K SECTOR FORMATTING – WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW
PostPosted: August 27th, 2013, 19:47 
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Good Point are all the chipset and storage drivers the latest ones. There may be some software support added.


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 Post subject: Re: 4K SECTOR FORMATTING – WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW
PostPosted: August 28th, 2013, 10:34 
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Quote:
The drives normally have a sticker to say go to their website so that you can see what if any extra steps are needed to use the drive. did you do that

No it doesn't have ANY sticker - just, model, part numer and serial number.

I manage to install XP into an external hard drive (USB 2,5"). It still doesn't detect my internal 1,8" hard disk. (by the way hard disk itself it's ok, it contain windows 7 and work all right with it)

I think it is something about hard drive firmware or something.


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 Post subject: Re: 4K SECTOR FORMATTING – WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW
PostPosted: August 28th, 2013, 18:13 
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HaQue wrote:
Good Point are all the chipset and storage drivers the latest ones. There may be some software support added.

I wasn't suggesting that there was a driver issue. AISI, Windows XP should have native support for IDE controllers, so I doubt that it needs some kind of pre-installation driver, as is the case with SATA controllers. In fact it would be interesting to see if Windows 9x could detect the drive, or even FreeDOS.

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 Post subject: Re: 4K SECTOR FORMATTING – WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW
PostPosted: August 28th, 2013, 18:39 
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Quote:
it would be interesting to see if Windows 9x could detect the drive, or even FreeDOS


I WILL try to install an old Win9x and the latest version of freeDOS.


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 Post subject: Re: 4K SECTOR FORMATTING – WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW
PostPosted: August 28th, 2013, 19:24 
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fzabkar wrote:
HaQue wrote:
Good Point are all the chipset and storage drivers the latest ones. There may be some software support added.

I wasn't suggesting that there was a driver issue. AISI, Windows XP should have native support for IDE controllers, so I doubt that it needs some kind of pre-installation driver, as is the case with SATA controllers. In fact it would be interesting to see if Windows 9x could detect the drive, or even FreeDOS.


I was thinking like the F6 Floppy, or Chipset Drivers to properly support the MB..


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 Post subject: Re: 4K SECTOR FORMATTING – WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW
PostPosted: August 28th, 2013, 19:47 
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Is BartPE an option for you, at least for testing purposes?
http://www.nu2.nu/pebuilder/

Does the bootable WinXP CD need to be created on the same system that it will run on, or can it be created on a different XP system?

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 Post subject: Re: 4K SECTOR FORMATTING – WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW
PostPosted: September 4th, 2013, 21:14 
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So IT DOES NOT WORK. I try with Windows 98, Win2k, and again Windows XP...NOTHING. This hard drive is not detected by ANY OTHER Microsoft OS until Vista SP2 (from Vista SP2 its working without any problem).

I really don't understand WHY is not detected, as the hard drive controller translate from 4k to 512 Bytes sectors to host OS.

What mechanism is inside Windows 7 for detection of hard drive ? Maybe can be implemented in XP (as a driver or a patch)


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 Post subject: Re: 4K SECTOR FORMATTING – WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW
PostPosted: November 7th, 2013, 16:26 
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Joined: May 16th, 2009, 9:32
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Anyone seen any Native 4K disks yet ?

(not 512e drives, ones that expose the native 4K sectors directly)


I've seen a 3TB Seagate in a Buffalo external USB enclosure
where the drive is 512e
but the USB enclosure exposes it as 4K native

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=26959

There were some 1.8" drives that might have been 4K native, but most (all?) turned out to be 512e
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=16582


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