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 Post subject: Re: Sniffing control flow between legacy devices over PATA/A
PostPosted: August 10th, 2020, 23:40 
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Joined: August 7th, 2020, 15:49
Posts: 6
Location: Canada
Nope not expecting Hot swappable capabilities at all. I dont even think that is possible with ide as far as i know. Plus that wouldnt make much sense as the games would be running from it the minute that usb come out bye bye game progression. I just want something smaller then the typical hdd used for this mod and easier to daily use then a cf which is another option. After some searching i found a pdf called S1R72U16 Evaluation Board Manual
pretty much had the rest of the info i needed. thx again for the help.


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 Post subject: Re: Sniffing control flow between legacy devices over PATA/A
PostPosted: August 25th, 2020, 5:03 
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Joined: August 25th, 2020, 4:56
Posts: 1
Location: Kaliningrad, Russia
Hi. We doing some research about Roland and ZIP here https://www.phantom.sannata.org/viewtop ... 18&t=33077
Forum nn russian, but may be someone have someting to add or just interesting
Now main idea - reverse firmware for FC1307A for add ATAPI support


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 Post subject: Re: Sniffing control flow between legacy devices over PATA/A
PostPosted: August 25th, 2020, 15:19 
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Joined: August 25th, 2020, 15:05
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Location: h-tine hold it dine, tx, usa
1) Talked to a very nice gentleman on the phone, who works at CPR Tools. He said that their Converter Card is absolutely custom-made for their specific, proprietary devices, and that it absolutely will NOT work in a generic fashion without being hooked up to their devices. He suggested checking StarTech (and I know we've generally ruled that kind of solution out) but I may just check again with them.

2) I ordered the SalvationData converter card from DriveStar. It's on the way from Hong Kong via DHL. A very friendly gentleman at DriveStar told me, via email, that they can get as many of those cards as I want -- so evidently they ARE still in production. I'll do the "ATAPI Resistor/Jumper Change" and give that a shot. (It doesn't look like this solution would support Hot-Swap, although I think the Epson chip it uses does implement that -- I think that's what the "Reset" command does?)

3) Hot-Swap is a moot point for me personally, since my plan is to put a WiFi-enabled 128GB USB Drive inside it. This is a good solution for me since that's 1,280 ZIP100 disks worth, plus I want to be able to run a script that will keep the data synchronized between my 808s anyway -- see attached photo:

I promise to update with what I find out, even if it's "it didn't work at all".
rs

ps - Fun Fact, I was the first known person (in the wild) to put the EX OS on the original SP-808 back in the late 1990s.


Attachments:
808-trio.jpeg
808-trio.jpeg [ 1.84 MiB | Viewed 4611 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Sniffing control flow between legacy devices over PATA/A
PostPosted: August 25th, 2020, 20:51 
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At US$80, isn't it more expensive than buying from SD directly?

https://www.drivestar.biz/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=4915&zenid=bbns40f7rqt4rlc44brk2oo786

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 Post subject: Re: Sniffing control flow between legacy devices over PATA/A
PostPosted: August 25th, 2020, 21:04 
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Joined: August 25th, 2020, 15:05
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Location: h-tine hold it dine, tx, usa
fzabkar, Yes, I tried ordering it from SD directly first. But they said they didn't stock it at all:

Quote:
Dear Ryan,

Thanks for your contacting SalvationDATA. We are so sorry that "converter USB to IDE Male" is unavailable from us.

SalvationDATA is a company focused on digital forensics...
...


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 Post subject: Re: Sniffing control flow between legacy devices over PATA/A
PostPosted: August 29th, 2020, 22:33 
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Joined: July 28th, 2020, 13:03
Posts: 4
Location: Tennessee
Funny enough I called the CPR tools people a few weeks ago too. The guy was very nice. He knew was a sp-808 was because he was a key board player. Gave me the same answer about it being proprietary. Probably thought it was strange getting two calls so close together about using the USB atapi device for a sp-808.


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 Post subject: Re: Sniffing control flow between legacy devices over PATA/A
PostPosted: August 30th, 2020, 10:46 
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Joined: August 25th, 2020, 15:05
Posts: 16
Location: h-tine hold it dine, tx, usa
micmic, It was a friendly fellow with a deep voice, correct? He seemed to anticipate my question, though I didn't mention SP-808 by name, just a Legacy ATAPI Host that used a ZIP Drive. But yeah, right off the bat he was certain their card wouldn't work in a generic way.

***

1) DHL should have my SalvationData board to me by Wednesday, straight from Hong Kong. I expect to have it tested by next weekend.

2) I bought a WiFi-enabled USB thumb-drive to test, but it was too fiddly to just connect to it as an FTP site, which is what I'd want to do so that I could easily synchronize it via command-line. They wanted you to download a special Phone App for it and there were other quirks too. So I decided "regular" USB drives are probably a better choice for this application. However, that means I can't just seal the drive up inside the SP-808 -- I'll need a solution that allows changing the USB drive without disassembly of the unit.

3) Therefore: if the SalvationData card ends up working, I'll release the Front Panel Express files, for the Front Face I made for the SP-808 drive slot. It is designed to use a professional-grade Neutrik NAUSB panel-mount socket. I will release it along with documentation of the entire process and a BOM, all probably as part of a Github. The SP-808 has a metal "caddy" inside, which screws to the main chassis. This caddy is entirely separate from the housing of the ZIP Drive -- so once the Drive is removed, the caddy fully remains, and can be reused to mount another solution in fine style.

(The bracket I designed is "industrial grade", and runs in the $65 range shipped -- so certainly there are cheaper mounting solutions possible. I'll leave the exercise of determining those solutions to the reader.) (:

rs


Attachments:
sp808-drive-frontpanel-000.png
sp808-drive-frontpanel-000.png [ 206.33 KiB | Viewed 4428 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Sniffing control flow between legacy devices over PATA/A
PostPosted: August 30th, 2020, 14:59 
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Location: Australia
@ryansupak, before you install the adapter, could you photograph or scan (CCD) the PCB? I'm curious as to the identity of the 8-pin IC.

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 Post subject: Re: Sniffing control flow between legacy devices over PATA/A
PostPosted: August 31st, 2020, 20:07 
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Joined: August 25th, 2020, 15:05
Posts: 16
Location: h-tine hold it dine, tx, usa
@fzabkar, see attached. My phone does not take great pics, sadly. I can't make out that the markings on that IC -- I ordered a 5x magnifier light which should arrive Wednesday and I can try to make out the markings then. Otherwise you say having it Scanned is a good method?

***

Update: I have installed the SalvationData board (in default mode, which is presumably IDE) and the SP-808 powers on, and both Status Lights on the SalvationData board illuminate, meaning it is at least getting power. The initial "Roland SP-808" screen appears, and then after exactly 20-seconds (which is the time within which it would normally be reading from the ZIP) it goes to the "Groove Sampler" screen, which is the second part of the intro sequence. Next, the screen reads "Please Insert Zip Disk" but inserting/removing a USB drive does not do anything.

Other variants I tried: Booting both with a USB Drive inserted and without one inserted, and booting with the Jumper J2 (which is the jumper on the corner of the board next to the USB socket) both in (default) and out. (I assume this is Master/Slave?) No change in behavior.

Next steps: Perform the IDE->ATAPI mod on the board by lifting the 10K resistor R60 (thanks @fzabkar for this tip a few pages back!). I will probably wait at-least until Wednesday night to try this, since that's when my Magnifier arrives, and I want to be extra-careful...

More as it comes, rs


Attachments:
SalvationData-FrontSide.png
SalvationData-FrontSide.png [ 1.86 MiB | Viewed 4283 times ]
SalvationData-RearSide.png
SalvationData-RearSide.png [ 1.76 MiB | Viewed 4283 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Sniffing control flow between legacy devices over PATA/A
PostPosted: August 31st, 2020, 20:58 
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Posts: 12643
Location: Australia
I scan my HDD PCBs with a CCD scanner (not CIS) in 1200dpi resolution. It produces much better results than most cameras. CIS scanners are not suitable for this.

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 Post subject: Re: Sniffing control flow between legacy devices over PATA/A
PostPosted: August 31st, 2020, 21:02 
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Joined: August 25th, 2020, 15:05
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Location: h-tine hold it dine, tx, usa
@fzabkar, my friend works at a place where they do a lot of paper blueprint/engineering drawing generation, etc. I'll ask her if one of their multi-gazillion dollar machines would do the trick. rs


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 Post subject: Re: Sniffing control flow between legacy devices over PATA/A
PostPosted: September 1st, 2020, 2:33 
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Joined: December 4th, 2012, 1:35
Posts: 3611
Location: Adelaide, Australia
tip for great photos with a phone:

use a desk lamp or some kind of light to shine at the wall, a corner where both walls are white is ideal.
Put the subject close to the wall and manouvre it around until the writing on the chips show up well.
Change angles with the subject and the phone until you get a desired result.
Dont zoom in with phone controls, wait until you get a good pic and you can zoom in on the PC (or phone gallery).

play around and you will get great pictures.


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 Post subject: Re: Sniffing control flow between legacy devices over PATA/A
PostPosted: September 1st, 2020, 2:58 
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Joined: December 4th, 2012, 1:35
Posts: 3611
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Further to this,

crop out the unwanted area/background. This is good to reduce bandwith of upload and to help out people with slow connections. Yes they still exist, 1MB pic can be annoying for people. high res of course you wil have to make that sacrifice.

here is some I took on my Samsung 9+, just using a LED lit magnifying glass to shine some light where needed. You kinda need 3 hands for this!

If taking a pic on the phone and you want to remove EXIF data, win 10 has a handy feature. right-click picure and choose properties, then the details tab. down the bottom, click the link to create a copy that removes all personal info. You can also choose what properties to keep if you like.

Attachment:
SD-USB-IDE1.jpg
SD-USB-IDE1.jpg [ 1.23 MiB | Viewed 4245 times ]


Attachment:
SD-USB-IDE2.jpg
SD-USB-IDE2.jpg [ 1.1 MiB | Viewed 4245 times ]


Attachment:
SD-USB-IDE3.jpg
SD-USB-IDE3.jpg [ 1.68 MiB | Viewed 4245 times ]


I coupld probably read this Eeprom if required.


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 Post subject: Re: Sniffing control flow between legacy devices over PATA/A
PostPosted: September 1st, 2020, 3:12 
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To reconfigure the PCB for ATAPI mode, you need to remove resistor R60 and connect a leaded resistor with a similar resistance between TP26 and a nearby ground point.

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 Post subject: Re: Sniffing control flow between legacy devices over PATA/A
PostPosted: September 1st, 2020, 7:36 
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Joined: December 4th, 2012, 1:35
Posts: 3611
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Back when I had intended to research the SP-808 a bit more, I bid on, and won a CPU board for the SP-808 on eBay.
The dodgy seller sent me this useless (to me) Panel board.

If you own a SP-808, and want it, let me know. I will post free to anyone in AU, or if international, you just pay postage.

First in gets it.

Attachment:
sp808-Panel-Board.jpg
sp808-Panel-Board.jpg [ 725.63 KiB | Viewed 4220 times ]


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 Post subject: Re: Sniffing control flow between legacy devices over PATA/A
PostPosted: September 5th, 2020, 12:02 
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Joined: August 25th, 2020, 15:05
Posts: 16
Location: h-tine hold it dine, tx, usa
@HaQue, I will be more sensitive to people with slow bandwidth in future by cropping photos more-tightly. Thanks for that reminder. Also, thanks for the SP-808 board offer. As I have (4x) SP-808s (one is a Parts Machine that I'm testing on, and (3x) are ones I use), I'm good. :)

***

@fzabkar, the chip you asked about has the following markings. Looks like a USB Power Switch, according to Google?

Code:
Sipex 2526A-1E
1624L


***

I just got my magnifier (that was how I was able to read the chip) and some very small solder. I hope to attempt the ATAPI mod to the board sometime this weekend. (Also @fzabkar , thanks for the reminder on the exact board mods.)

rs


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 Post subject: Re: Sniffing control flow between legacy devices over PATA/A
PostPosted: September 5th, 2020, 12:49 
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Joined: August 25th, 2020, 15:05
Posts: 16
Location: h-tine hold it dine, tx, usa
OK, I'm not sure I have the skills to perform this mod. Had never done SMD before and the SMD part was easy: I removed 10K resistor R60 no-problem.

However, My TP26 doesn't have a through-hole like this one does, so I tried jamming a resistor lead in there (I know, I know) and I just ended up making a mess. Then I tried soldering magnet-wire directly to the Epson IC pin, and I'm not sure if I bridged some of the neighboring pins in the process.

I suspect that DriveStar made my Salvation Data board on-demand when I ordered it, so I am going to see if they can produce it in ATAPI mode.

rs


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 Post subject: Re: Sniffing control flow between legacy devices over PATA/A
PostPosted: September 5th, 2020, 13:13 
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Joined: August 25th, 2020, 15:05
Posts: 16
Location: h-tine hold it dine, tx, usa
Back to the proverbial "drawing board"...

1) I picked up some Flux, which will arrive Thursday. I'll try to clean those Solder Bridges I made with that, and Wick. (Again, I'm a decent through-hole solderer, but I'd never touched SMD until today.)

2) I also emailed DriveStar to see if they can just manufacture the darn board the way we need it in the first place. If this approach turns out to work, eliminating the step of making SMD mods to the board, will make this whole exercise way more approachable for most people.

rs


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 Post subject: Re: Sniffing control flow between legacy devices over PATA/A
PostPosted: September 11th, 2020, 13:50 
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Joined: August 25th, 2020, 15:05
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Location: h-tine hold it dine, tx, usa
Updates:

SalvationData board was a dead end. Did the ATAPI mod to that SD board, and it responds identically to the way it does in the default IDE Mode (in other words, it doesn't do anything but light the Status and Power LEDs up).

***

I found a gentleman online who manufactures and sells a board that was originally designed to emulate ATAPI Optical Drives for (I think?) defunct arcade machines, using USB Drives as a storage replacement. He was so interested in what we were doing, that after a couple of emails, he bought his own SP-808, and he is going to give adapting his existing board to our application a shot! He says he expects that his existing board will work, by way of a few small software enhancements to handle ZIP-specific commands.

He is aware of this thread, and of the concurrently-happening MidiManiac attempt to crowdfund an adapter. To me, this guy's work seems like it's by far the closest thing to a solution out there at the moment. I won't link to his page here -- but know that he is serious about pursuing this, and certainly I am sure he'll speak up if/when he wants to. :)

rs


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 Post subject: Re: Sniffing control flow between legacy devices over PATA/A
PostPosted: September 11th, 2020, 17:42 
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Location: Australia
Check the Enable pin of the Sipex chip, or check whether +5V is present at the USB connector.

http://www.jctic.cn/Sipex/USB/img/SP2526a.pdf

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