Sniffing control flow between legacy devices over PATA/ATAPI

[fzabkar]

No, such bridges are used in adapters which connect a USB host to an IDE ATA/ATAPI device. You need to go the other way round, ie you need to connect an IDE/ATAPI host to a USB peripheral. Such adapters are very rare.

Not even this reference board? It also provides a TUSB6250 hardware reference design for connection to an ATA/ATAPI device such as a hard disk drive (HDD), ZIP drive, magneto-optical drive (MO), ORB, CD-ROM, CD-R/W, DVD-ROM, or DVD-RAM.


http://eicom.ru/pdf/datasheet/Texas_Ins ... 0DEMO.html

2.2 Hardware Installation

The following parts/devices are needed to set up the demonstration board:

- Hi-speed USB cable

- ATA/ATAPI device (HDD, CDROM, DVD, etc.)

- ATA/66 ribbon cable, 40-pin, 80-conductor cable

- Power source for ATA/ATAPI device

- PC or Mac with USB host controller or PC/Mac with USB onboard host
controller card. A high-speed host controller is required for high-speed
operation.

[chrisfoster]

I did a search for ATA-IDE-V7.3, because that is on the card reader that is currently supported (with OS update) by the AKAI MPC2000XL (Blue). The original drive out of this unit is the one which worked in the SP808EX.

http://www.attro.com/html/peripherals-6_ata.htm

http://www.allstorage.com.tw/prod-cardmaster.htm

The manual for the C.M.-IDE-421.HS states : Comply with IDE Specification Version 3

http://www.prestico.com/manual/IDE-421.pdf

So I wonder what ID Spec version are we looking for?

Good info here maybe:

https://www.rockbox.org/wiki/CFModGuide

[fzabkar]

All those adapters seem to be passive devices (apart from a 3.3V LDO regulator). This means that they essentially just convert the connector pinouts from CF-50 to IDE-40. The command set is still restricted to ATA. Perhaps Akai's MPC2000XL supports both ATA and ATAPI commands, whereas your Roland might only support ATAPI?

The Rockbox page talks about replacing PATA HDDs with CF cards. Essentially this amounts to replacing an existing mechanical ATA device with a solid-state ATA device. Once again I don't think this is of any help to you, assuming that the Roland does indeed insist on an ATAPI storage device.

[HaQue]

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/sd-a ... sp-808ex#/
http://www.ebay.com/itm/271723278972

both links from

https://jimatwood.wordpress.com/2012/01 ... land-gear/

[chrisfoster]

The CPR Tools USB to IDE Adapter was designed for our products, such as PSIClone, as a USB to IDE pass-through adapter. The adapter is only supported for our products such as PSIClone, Hammer, and Sledge Hammer.

As for your question about the Zip drive, the adapter will not emulate the drive. If the adapter is connected for use with our devices (PSIClone, Hammer, and Sledge Hammer) and the Zip drive can be seen as a mass storage device (like a hard drive or USB flash drive), then the PSIClone with the adapter will have a good possibility of being able to communicate with the Zip drive

[chrisfoster]

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/sd-atapi-conversion-adapter-for-roland-sp-808ex#/
http://www.ebay.com/itm/271723278972

"Addonics AEIUDMD is the same as Addonics AEIUDMD9 but without a memory card adapter"

I think those cards might extinct, but gonna have a dig anyway.

That kickstarter sure was a miserable flop..probably not much promotion around the music gear blogs.

[fzabkar]

The CPR Tools USB to IDE Adapter was designed for our products, such as PSIClone, as a USB to IDE pass-through adapter. The adapter is only supported for our products such as PSIClone, Hammer, and Sledge Hammer.

As for your question about the Zip drive, the adapter will not emulate the drive. If the adapter is connected for use with our devices (PSIClone, Hammer, and Sledge Hammer) and the Zip drive can be seen as a mass storage device (like a hard drive or USB flash drive), then the PSIClone with the adapter will have a good possibility of being able to communicate with the Zip drive

I don't think the support person understands your requirements, or perhaps you didn't state them correctly. S/he seems to think that your Zip drive is a USB device, and that you want to communicate with it via an IDE(host)-to-USB(device) adapter so that it can then be seen by their PATA cloning tools. I suspect that their adapter will work just fine. Can you ask them for the part number of the bridge IC?

[fzabkar]

@chrisfoster, although the links to the two ATAPI products in the following article are dead, I'm wondering if it might help to see a photo of the chip(s). Do you know of anyone who might be able to provide such info?

http://midicase.com/card_reader_guide.htm

IISDMC for the XL. This is an internal ATAPI product found here, here, and elsewhere.
http://www.amtron.com/reader/iisdmc.htm
http://www.psism.com/iisdmc.htm

Addonics IDE Ultra DigiDrive, internal, MPC2000XL only.
http://www.addonics.com/products/flash_ ... idrive.asp

The ATAPI models, like the IISDMC and Addonics ...

[chrisfoster]

although the links to the two ATAPI products in the following article are dead, I'm wondering if it might help to see a photo of the chip(s). Do you know of anyone who might be able to provide such info?

Unfortunately I have no access to that equipment.

I do have a support request open with addonics to provide documentation for the current ADIDECF model (http://www.addonics.com/datasheets/files/ADIDECF.pdf) and the discontinued AEIUDMD /AEIUDMD9 (known to work with SP-808EX) so a comparison can be made.

[chrisfoster]

From the SP-808EX service manual (https://manuals.center/database/manuals/DVD88/SP808.pdf) the chip that services the Zip drive is SLA919FF0J

This datasheet is from Epson http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet- ... A919F.html

Any connection with the "EPSON R72U1614E2" (S1R72U16F14E200) from the SalvationData board.

Grasping at straws probably

Edit: It seems the ADIDECF (current model) does not work after all.

[chrisfoster]

Another nugget from a 2010 post:

I found that for the IDE/CF convertor i needed to have the FlashRom mode set to ReWrite Mode (jumper pair 8 connected)

Folks testing the ADIDECF may have missed this

[chrisfoster]

Marvell 88SA8052 PATA to SATA Bridge?

https://origin-www.marvell.com/docs/sto ... 015-09.pdf

http://www.ebay.com/itm/IDE-Host-To-Dua ... 2339255499

Asking for info on this one also:

http://www.hsc-us.com/Embedded/CFadapters/ATG_index.htm

[HaQue]

anyone got any firmware I could disassemble? Might help to have a look at what it is doing.

I just bought this mainboard to have a look: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/322465463551

Also, are there difference, drivewise, of the SP-808 and SP-808EX? Also which one is th OP asking about for this project?

If we solve this I may buy another one to play around with. I sold Mine years ago as I didn't really play with effects but just really played guitar

[chrisfoster]

anyone got any firmware I could disassemble? Might help to have a look at what it is doing.
Also, are there difference, drivewise, of the SP-808 and SP-808EX? Also which one is th OP asking about for this project?

ATAPI100ZIP for the SP-808

Both models are the same mainboard, the 808 can be upgraded to the 808EX

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2SiAEbiBsE

Apparently the ZIP drive acts like RAM..constant access, could be part of the quirkiness

[HaQue]

You gotta love the.. shall we say.. Passion in that video there is no other way to refer to a zip drive than "that little f*ck*r"!
When he started playing with the D-Beam (Theramin?) my dogs went berserk
The RAM like interface seems strange now, but remember the engineers back then had less to work with, research on different methods of doing things with a view to the future was harder.. and the engineer would have went with what he knew. It probably could have went a variety of ways depending on the guy.

every time anything Roland comes up, I see a dozen different new things and think "oh they made one of those too?" They certainly made a tonne of devices.

I would love to see a Doco on the company & the engineering plus the behind the scenes on reasons they made certain devices..

[fzabkar]

The SLA919F is a gate array. This a large collection of gates, transistors or logical blocks whose interconnections need to be custom programmed in order to for the device to take on a particular function. Roland's designers have taken the blank gate array and designed the interconnects to create an IDE controller. Epson have then produced mask programmed versions of the chip for Roland. The S1R72U16F14E200 bridge IC is a completely unrelated chip.

The ADIDECF adapter appears to be a passive ATA-CF device, ie it merely converts the CF-50 physical interface to an IDE-40 pinout. This means that the CF card will still look like a CF card, ie an ATA device rather than ATAPI.

The Marvell 88SA8052 PATA to SATA Bridge only converts the physical interfaces. An ATA SATA device would still look like an ATA IDE device, not ATAPI. You would need to find an ATAPI SATA storage solution. Is there any bridge IC that connects a USB device or memory card to a SATA host in ATAPI mode? If so, then you could use an adapter based on such a bridge, and connect this adapter to your Roland via an intermediate PATA-to-SATA bridge.

SP-808 <- PATA-to-SATA bridge -> <- SATA-to-USB-or-memory-card bridge -> USB device or memory card

Google has thousands of hits, but it isn't clear which, if any, of these devices support ATAPI over SATA. I would think that the best chance of finding an ATAPI adapter would be one which supports SD/MMC cards, not just CF. CF relies on ATA commands (which require no translation) whereas SD/MMC uses a different command set. The RockBox site is very useful because users have uploaded the results of the ATA Identify Device command (ECh) for several ATA devices. In your case I would be testing prospective ATAPI candidates with the Identify Packet Device command (A1h).

The following discussion implies that someone, somewhere has been able to get an unspecified CF card to work in the SP-808/808EX. One of the comments refers to an "ATAPI compliant IDE interface’d CF adapter unit".

Converting zip drives to CF or SD Card Drives for Roland Gear:
https://jimatwood.wordpress.com/2012/01/18/converting-zip-drives-to-cf-or-sd-card-drives-for-roland-gear/

There are reports of CF card drives that work in the Roland SP-808 but no confirmed reports of exactly which drives or adapters. This is a huge thing if a CF or SD card adapter can be found for the Roland SP-808 Sampler. I’m not expecting it work really as so many adapters have been tried on the SP-808 and it’s been reported the OS firmware is the reason behind all the failed attempts.

I think the issue of CF modding the SP-808 is that it MUST be an ATAPI compliant IDE interface’d CF adapter unit. ATAPI is the same as CD/DVD/Tape and of course ZIP drives.. they all have one thing in common, they can eject their media. When you get a standard IDE to CF adapter, it wont work.. especially on the SP 808.

The IISDMC ATAPI card reader handles CF cards, so it must convert them from ATA to ATAPI. This requires "smart" intervention rather than mere physical connector conversion.

As for the ATG device, there are some reasonable photos in the following eBay listing. Clearly it's not a passive adapter, so it could potentially be an ATAPI device. However, I can't make out the chip numbers.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Toshiba-ATG3-CFLR01-EBT-Compact-Flash-Card-Module-HS881001A-Used-Working-/141979536416

The ATAPI Flash Memory Card Drive (P/N ATGx-CFxx) is a CompactFlash to ATA/ATAPI Flash memory card drive which adapts True IDE CF Card(s) in either Type I or Type II form factor to a standard solid state / non-volatile Flash ATA/ATAPI drive.

BTW, the SP-808 technical manual has firmware upgrade instructions. AIUI, you can do this in two ways -- either via a Zip disc, or via the MIDI interface with 8 floppy diskettes.

[chrisfoster]

When he started playing with the D-Beam (Theramin?) my dogs went berserk

Now there's a church, there is a steeple
Dogs are the best people

[chrisfoster]

Is there any bridge IC that connects a USB device or memory card to a SATA host in ATAPI mode? If so, then you could use an adapter based on such a bridge, and connect this adapter to your Roland via an intermediate PATA-to-SATA bridge.

SP-808 <- PATA-to-SATA bridge -> <- SATA-to-USB-or-memory-card bridge -> USB device or memory card

Something to consider for sure, may be expensive and clunky.

I would think that the best chance of finding an ATAPI adapter would be one which supports SD/MMC cards, not just CF. CF relies on ATA commands (which require no translation) whereas SD/MMC uses a different command set

SD/MMC

The RockBox site is very useful because users have uploaded the results of the ATA Identify Device command (ECh) for several ATA devices. In your case I would be testing prospective ATAPI candidates with the Identify Packet Device command (A1h)

SD/MMC + (A1h) command understood

The IISDMC ATAPI card reader handles CF cards, so it must convert them from ATA to ATAPI. This requires "smart" intervention rather than mere physical connector conversion

That card is rocking horse material unfortunately and I think for any card to work the drive has to be hot swap-able for the 808 (thats what the guy selling the Akai MPC drives told me)

As for the ATG device, there are some reasonable photos in the following eBay listing. Clearly it's not a passive adapter, so it could potentially be an ATAPI device. However, I can't make out the chip numbers

Looks like price rules that one out

BTW, the SP-808 technical manual has firmware upgrade instructions. AIUI, you can do this in two ways -- either via a Zip disc, or via the MIDI interface with 8 floppy diskettes.

That's to update the OS from SP-808 to SP-808EX I believe...as they both have the same mainboard in a different case. Both the 808 and 808EX can also be flashed to the Roland A6 video controller.

This article adds a bit more to the story, where someone also comments about any card needing to be hot swap-able: https://jimatwood.wordpress.com/2012/07 ... hard-disk/

[HaQue]

Not sure if it is of any value, but may as well add the datasheet for the flash memory used on the board:

LH28F800SUT.pdf

(328.3 KiB) Downloaded 814 times

[fzabkar]

Since the SP 808 OS code only supports ATAPI IDE, that is why you can never get a fixed HD to work in one. You could get it to work if you custom altered the OS code itself.. or use the A6 OS code that has the IDE HD support code in it.

I don't know whether this could be an option for HaQue.

The microcontroller is a 16-bit Hitachi/Renesas HD6432653 (H8S/2653) which has 64K mask ROM and 4K SRAM. FWIW, it has a UART port which is accessible via connector CN7.

The flash memory has a capacity of 1MB and is organised as 512K x 16. That's a lot of code.

H8S/2655 Group Hardware Manual (HD6432653):
https://4donline.ihs.com/images/VipMast ... 6856-1.pdf

SP-808 / SP-808 Pro Service Notes (with circuit diagrams):
https://manuals.center/database/manuals/DVD88/SP808.pdf

LH28F800SUT, Sharp, 8M (512K × 16, 1M × Flash Memory, 3.3V / 5V:
http://www.dataman.com/media/datasheet/ ... F800SU.pdf

(@HaQue: You just beat me to it.)