Sniffing control flow between legacy devices over PATA/ATAPI

[HaQue]

You gotta love the.. shall we say.. Passion in that video there is no other way to refer to a zip drive than "that little f*ck*r"!
When he started playing with the D-Beam (Theramin?) my dogs went berserk
The RAM like interface seems strange now, but remember the engineers back then had less to work with, research on different methods of doing things with a view to the future was harder.. and the engineer would have went with what he knew. It probably could have went a variety of ways depending on the guy.

every time anything Roland comes up, I see a dozen different new things and think "oh they made one of those too?" They certainly made a tonne of devices.

I would love to see a Doco on the company & the engineering plus the behind the scenes on reasons they made certain devices..

[fzabkar]

The SLA919F is a gate array. This a large collection of gates, transistors or logical blocks whose interconnections need to be custom programmed in order to for the device to take on a particular function. Roland's designers have taken the blank gate array and designed the interconnects to create an IDE controller. Epson have then produced mask programmed versions of the chip for Roland. The S1R72U16F14E200 bridge IC is a completely unrelated chip.

The ADIDECF adapter appears to be a passive ATA-CF device, ie it merely converts the CF-50 physical interface to an IDE-40 pinout. This means that the CF card will still look like a CF card, ie an ATA device rather than ATAPI.

The Marvell 88SA8052 PATA to SATA Bridge only converts the physical interfaces. An ATA SATA device would still look like an ATA IDE device, not ATAPI. You would need to find an ATAPI SATA storage solution. Is there any bridge IC that connects a USB device or memory card to a SATA host in ATAPI mode? If so, then you could use an adapter based on such a bridge, and connect this adapter to your Roland via an intermediate PATA-to-SATA bridge.

SP-808 <- PATA-to-SATA bridge -> <- SATA-to-USB-or-memory-card bridge -> USB device or memory card

Google has thousands of hits, but it isn't clear which, if any, of these devices support ATAPI over SATA. I would think that the best chance of finding an ATAPI adapter would be one which supports SD/MMC cards, not just CF. CF relies on ATA commands (which require no translation) whereas SD/MMC uses a different command set. The RockBox site is very useful because users have uploaded the results of the ATA Identify Device command (ECh) for several ATA devices. In your case I would be testing prospective ATAPI candidates with the Identify Packet Device command (A1h).

The following discussion implies that someone, somewhere has been able to get an unspecified CF card to work in the SP-808/808EX. One of the comments refers to an "ATAPI compliant IDE interface’d CF adapter unit".

Converting zip drives to CF or SD Card Drives for Roland Gear:
https://jimatwood.wordpress.com/2012/01/18/converting-zip-drives-to-cf-or-sd-card-drives-for-roland-gear/

There are reports of CF card drives that work in the Roland SP-808 but no confirmed reports of exactly which drives or adapters. This is a huge thing if a CF or SD card adapter can be found for the Roland SP-808 Sampler. I’m not expecting it work really as so many adapters have been tried on the SP-808 and it’s been reported the OS firmware is the reason behind all the failed attempts.

I think the issue of CF modding the SP-808 is that it MUST be an ATAPI compliant IDE interface’d CF adapter unit. ATAPI is the same as CD/DVD/Tape and of course ZIP drives.. they all have one thing in common, they can eject their media. When you get a standard IDE to CF adapter, it wont work.. especially on the SP 808.

The IISDMC ATAPI card reader handles CF cards, so it must convert them from ATA to ATAPI. This requires "smart" intervention rather than mere physical connector conversion.

As for the ATG device, there are some reasonable photos in the following eBay listing. Clearly it's not a passive adapter, so it could potentially be an ATAPI device. However, I can't make out the chip numbers.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Toshiba-ATG3-CFLR01-EBT-Compact-Flash-Card-Module-HS881001A-Used-Working-/141979536416

The ATAPI Flash Memory Card Drive (P/N ATGx-CFxx) is a CompactFlash to ATA/ATAPI Flash memory card drive which adapts True IDE CF Card(s) in either Type I or Type II form factor to a standard solid state / non-volatile Flash ATA/ATAPI drive.

BTW, the SP-808 technical manual has firmware upgrade instructions. AIUI, you can do this in two ways -- either via a Zip disc, or via the MIDI interface with 8 floppy diskettes.

[chrisfoster]

When he started playing with the D-Beam (Theramin?) my dogs went berserk

Now there's a church, there is a steeple
Dogs are the best people

[chrisfoster]

Is there any bridge IC that connects a USB device or memory card to a SATA host in ATAPI mode? If so, then you could use an adapter based on such a bridge, and connect this adapter to your Roland via an intermediate PATA-to-SATA bridge.

SP-808 <- PATA-to-SATA bridge -> <- SATA-to-USB-or-memory-card bridge -> USB device or memory card

Something to consider for sure, may be expensive and clunky.

I would think that the best chance of finding an ATAPI adapter would be one which supports SD/MMC cards, not just CF. CF relies on ATA commands (which require no translation) whereas SD/MMC uses a different command set

SD/MMC

The RockBox site is very useful because users have uploaded the results of the ATA Identify Device command (ECh) for several ATA devices. In your case I would be testing prospective ATAPI candidates with the Identify Packet Device command (A1h)

SD/MMC + (A1h) command understood

The IISDMC ATAPI card reader handles CF cards, so it must convert them from ATA to ATAPI. This requires "smart" intervention rather than mere physical connector conversion

That card is rocking horse material unfortunately and I think for any card to work the drive has to be hot swap-able for the 808 (thats what the guy selling the Akai MPC drives told me)

As for the ATG device, there are some reasonable photos in the following eBay listing. Clearly it's not a passive adapter, so it could potentially be an ATAPI device. However, I can't make out the chip numbers

Looks like price rules that one out

BTW, the SP-808 technical manual has firmware upgrade instructions. AIUI, you can do this in two ways -- either via a Zip disc, or via the MIDI interface with 8 floppy diskettes.

That's to update the OS from SP-808 to SP-808EX I believe...as they both have the same mainboard in a different case. Both the 808 and 808EX can also be flashed to the Roland A6 video controller.

This article adds a bit more to the story, where someone also comments about any card needing to be hot swap-able: https://jimatwood.wordpress.com/2012/07 ... hard-disk/

[HaQue]

Not sure if it is of any value, but may as well add the datasheet for the flash memory used on the board:

LH28F800SUT.pdf

(328.3 KiB) Downloaded 320 times

[fzabkar]

Since the SP 808 OS code only supports ATAPI IDE, that is why you can never get a fixed HD to work in one. You could get it to work if you custom altered the OS code itself.. or use the A6 OS code that has the IDE HD support code in it.

I don't know whether this could be an option for HaQue.

The microcontroller is a 16-bit Hitachi/Renesas HD6432653 (H8S/2653) which has 64K mask ROM and 4K SRAM. FWIW, it has a UART port which is accessible via connector CN7.

The flash memory has a capacity of 1MB and is organised as 512K x 16. That's a lot of code.

H8S/2655 Group Hardware Manual (HD6432653):
https://4donline.ihs.com/images/VipMast ... 6856-1.pdf

SP-808 / SP-808 Pro Service Notes (with circuit diagrams):
https://manuals.center/database/manuals/DVD88/SP808.pdf

LH28F800SUT, Sharp, 8M (512K × 16, 1M × Flash Memory, 3.3V / 5V:
http://www.dataman.com/media/datasheet/ ... F800SU.pdf

(@HaQue: You just beat me to it.)

[chrisfoster]

Probably of no use now, but this was the reply from HSC with a good spec sheet:

Our ATAPI products were discontinued long time ago.
We may still have maintenance inventory but quantity should be very limited.

This ATAPI card reader is designed for industrial applications.
It should be able to replace ATAPI storage device like ZIP but we have not tested compatibility with musical instruments before

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2aVIe ... 3VkhB/view

[fzabkar]

Is US$200 too much?

Converter USB to IDE Male for Salvationdata:
http://www.drivestar.biz/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=66_104_133&products_id=4915

[chrisfoster]

This list: http://www.hjreggel.net/cardspeed/info-controller.html shows:

VT6205A - USB 2.0 to 9-in-1 Flash Card Reader
CF, MD, SM, MS, MS Pro (4-bit), SD, MMC, xD, NAND-Flash, ATA/ATAPI

Vectro VT6205 : https://www.viatech.com/en/silicon/lega ... sb/vt6205/

Not sure if this is the 'A' version: https://farm3.static.flickr.com/2275/20 ... eb33_b.jpg

Roadmap presentation: http://nethd.zhongso.com/ttdata/netdisk ... 103052.pdf

[chrisfoster]

Is US$200 too much?

It doesn't have that adapter on it, but:

It's a USB 2.0 to IDE 3.0 adapter, sorry we have no technical documentation for this component.

We are data recovery tool manufacture and integrated digital forensics solution provider. Welcome to click this link to have a brief understanding of our company: www.salvationdata.com

This USB to IDE adapter is our supplied accessory for old generation products which is purchased from one of our cooperative factories, I am so sorry we could not provide the technical documentation you need

You could buy from us directly. Unit price for this adapter is 50us dollars, shipping fee by Fedex to Australia is 28 us dollar.
Total is 78 US dollars.

Paypal and T/T both are ok in our side.
-------------------------------------------------

If someone wants to take a punt, I have a SP808EX in Adelaide CBD for testing

[fzabkar]

The VIA chip is unsuitable -- it connects a USB host to a memory card device.

The SalvationData adapter looks like a good punt, though. Just be prepared to modify 1 or more of the 3 configuration pins (you may need to ground the ATAPI/ATA mode select pin).

[fzabkar]

The VIA chip is unsuitable -- it connects a USB host to a memory card device.

ISTM that I may have misunderstood you. Are you suggesting that the VIA based adapter could be used to connect memory cards to the SalvationData adapter? If so, then why not simply connect a USB flash drive instead?

[fzabkar]

Just to clarify things, I am proposing the following setup.

SP-808/808EX ATAPI/IDE host <--> SalvationData IDE_device-to-USB_host adapter <--> USB flash drive

If I now understand correctly, you were proposing this setup (which will probably work):

SP-808/808EX ATAPI/IDE host <--> SD adapter <--> VIA USB-memory-card adapter <--> memory card

[HaQue]

I just bought one of these..

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/391788567610

If I havent got an 808 before it arives I will give it to @chrisfoster to try out.

To be honest I havent really dug into this thread, just kind of took an interest and randomly picking at different posts to see what I can find. Most of the time I am hitting the same info as already here. The bit that I am really interested in is how they are using the zip disk as RAM, though I am guessing that this is laymans terminology, but if it is a genuine mode of operation, and not a hack, I think discovering whats going on may help.

The original direction of the thread would be interesting too, exactly what is it sending the zip disk, and listening for. It just seems an extremely odd choice, but for the time, a fairly cheap way of getting so much room.

The 8 midi files for the OS.. I am guessing it is just one per bank of the chip and code just gets written direct as is.
I cant access the yahoo group where the A6 OS is, anyone have a copy?

[fzabkar]

That LogiLink adapter is based on a JMicron JM20330 SATA-PATA bridge.

http://www.go-gddq.com/downlocal/J/JM20330.pdf

The 3 MODE pins select between device or host mode, and 100/133/150 MB/s.

ISTM that all this card does is to make an ATAPI PATA host (the SP-808) look like an ATAPI SATA host. This leaves you with the problem of finding an ATAPI SATA storage solution.

[HaQue]

Do you ever sleep Franc?

oh, well for that price, may as well have one. Thats a very slim datasheet! There is a slim possibility it may provide whatever the 808 is looking for if used sandwiched with another adapter/device.

I will probably buy one of the SD adapters, along with a large container of disinfectant. I know how dirty you feel after buying from them and getting sh*t on minutes after. Flash Doctor 'happy' customer..

to the original idea, how doable is sniffing the bus?

regards to to Roland Edirol A-6 .. why is there no mention of the product anywhere on any support page, including legacy support, or product pages. it is like in they deny it exists. Went looking for the A6 OS update and could only find a reference or 2 and outdated links.

[fzabkar]

Here is a better document:
http://www.users.on.net/~fzabkar/temp/J ... v.-2.3.pdf

Sniffing the bus might be doable using Spildit's method with Seagate drives, but it is a little complicated. I suspect that the SP-808 is using the Identify Packet Device command to detect the drive, and the Packet command to send ATAPI (SCSI) command packets to it.

Edit: My dog is an early riser.

[chrisfoster]

If I now understand correctly, you were proposing this setup (which will probably work):

SP-808/808EX ATAPI/IDE host <--> SD adapter <--> VIA USB-memory-card adapter <--> memory card

Actually I'm just trying to find contenders to be vetted...so far that Salvationdata unit looks like the best bet.

[fzabkar]

If the SalvationData adapter works, then so should the CPR Tools adapter, even if CPR's support staff don't know what it is.

When you receive the SalvationData adapter, could you please upload hires photos or CCD scans of both sides of the PCB? There appear to be two resistors (R61/R62 ?) adjacent to pins 25, 26 and 27. I believe these will configure the device for IDE/ATAPI/single-device mode. Hopefully they are already set in the ATAPI position, otherwise you will need to make some minor changes.

[chrisfoster]

[quote="fzabkar"]If the SalvationData adapter works, then so should the CPR Tools adapter, even if CPR's support staff don't know what it is.

I've now contacted both companies for dimensions and hi res shots of both sides.