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 Post subject: Results of the D.I.Y (Do It Yourself) solutions.
PostPosted: April 9th, 2009, 16:51 
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Hello Gurus,

This topic is born to be for linking it in instead of 1000 and more useless words in almost any topic.

Dear readers of this board,

If the gurus sad, "you can't fix it, try to find a pro...", you should read this thread before do anything....

There is some sample about why not DIY:

- Why not perform a platter exchange @ home for DIY?

Because the platters are "aligned" in the factory.
This happened more ways, depends on the building methode.

If somebody want to do the transplant, needs to move the platters together, because some micron rotation or movement on any side will cut the data from the outside world.
The cylinders are tilted, screwed, the tracks can becomes eccentric and the head will never find these again...
This job can be done with expensive tools and A LOT of practice before trying the first important drive...

- Why not replace the headstack @ home for DIY?

Because depends on the hdd brand, the MHA (Magnetic Head Assembly) can be made of more brand's heads and preamp chip.
Additionally the factory often modify the parts, because does continous researching...
If you have missed the preamp type, you can burn out the new one, the smoke fall to the platters inside the closed HDA.
The burned preamp can damage the read channel in the pcb, or other parts like power supply, or DC-DC converters in the pcb.
If you missed the MHA structure, you can scratch the platters with the heads.
If you missed the head type/model, the mismatching BIAS value can damage the data during the PC reading or even if the drive try to access the SA without the engineer does any thing wrong....

The arms/springs wich holds the heads are really delicate and sensitive for any move.
The heads/preamp is extremely sensitive for ESD, so you need to work with it on ESD safe workplace.
You can't measure it with standard/usual tools, because only a simple digital multimeter can burn out the preamp's input fets...

Some of the models, have "aligned" heads as well, not only platters...
If you loosen up the top lid's screws you have ruined the alignment wich is micron precise.
Some models can use only the own heads or extremely sensitive for the differences, so finding the perfect donor is a challange for a pros too as well on some cases...

- Why not open the drive @ home for DIY?

Because the dust wich in the air much more bigger then the flying height of the head. (0.6-0.9 micron)
If only one piece of dust gets between the head and platter, then it will scratch the platter and free up more magnetic dust form the surface wich like to stuck to the heads and platters again to make more trouble...
Safely opening the drive can be done only on really clean environment, in an expensive cleanroom.

- Why not replace the PCB @ home DIY?

1. Because bad preamp can burn out the new pcb too, and can be burn out more smoke inside the HDA.
2. Because the PCB is programmed (calibrated) for preamp/heads assembly mix for perfect performance and for the SA location too.
If You modify these settings with replacing the PCB You can mess up your data or simple pump up the recovery price for a D.R. company...
3. Because the same model numbered chips can have different programs / configuration parameters / adaptive data inside!

- Why not try to fix the SA @ home DIY?

The SA have almost anything about this drive....
The Zone allocation tables, the Head maps/usages (model specific), the deffect logs and defective sectors list (translator)
servo calibration tables, and so on...
This is a heavily designed and "componed" driver program, this is like the "BIOS" of the hypertuned drive which You want to fix.
If the data is important inside, don't think to modify anything without you exactly and absolutely know what you are doing!
The SA have some factory routines as well wich was made for testing the drive, and can destroy the data.
If you mess up one critical module, the drive can be unrecoverable forever or the price is doubled or tripled!

- Why not try to image a bad sector drive [under windoze] DIY?

Simply because windows don't know how shoud behave an OS.....
Windows can't resist itself from making A LOT of modification on a bad drive!
I have exactly one bad sector drive (unnamed brand) wich _have not partition table_ at all, but the first error message on the windows startup is on this drive: "The windows can't write out the data form the cache, the data is lost....". :shock:
What data??? :shock:

Another point of view:
If the drive have some bads, the user can't figure out the reason of these!
The read channel can be bad too, and when the drive reads from one side, the other head can demagnetize the another side....
If the head is weak, this can die soon, can crash too, and scratch up the surface in some seconds!
If the surface have a scratch (eg. caused by a shock in the past) the scratch can crash the head and here goes again the previous point...
If the surface is good, the heads can survive the forced reading, the drive tries to re-allocate the bad sectors.
This is on some modells can cause a G list overflow (SA corruption) and the drive stops to working unexpectedly.

- Why not ask the members of this forum when you only want DIY?

Because these people here wants to help for each others, and trust me, it is bad to see if an unskilled person can't read the right words and ruin his drive maybe forever instead of getting back his data in a cheap way....
This is a technical forum, not a DIY for alughing on each other's faults.... :(

Best Regards,
Janos Haar

http://recovery.netcenter.hu


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 Post subject: Re: Results of the D.I.Y (Do It Yourself) solutions.
PostPosted: April 9th, 2009, 17:35 
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Nice job, I vote to MAKE IT STICKY!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Results of the D.I.Y (Do It Yourself) solutions.
PostPosted: April 9th, 2009, 22:28 
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Joined: October 23rd, 2006, 8:56
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I second that :D


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 Post subject: Re: Results of the D.I.Y (Do It Yourself) solutions.
PostPosted: April 9th, 2009, 23:10 
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Joined: February 9th, 2009, 16:13
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You missed the, "Why not run SpinRite, HDD Regenerator and other tools that destroy your hard drive?"

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 Post subject: Re: Results of the D.I.Y (Do It Yourself) solutions.
PostPosted: April 10th, 2009, 0:53 
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lcoughey wrote:
You missed the, "Why not run SpinRite, HDD Regenerator and other tools that destroy your hard drive?"


After i submitted the post, i had some more good ideas, but this is an open forum, so we can collect up the things.... :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Results of the D.I.Y (Do It Yourself) solutions.
PostPosted: April 10th, 2009, 5:28 
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Joined: September 2nd, 2008, 12:14
Posts: 446
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@Janos + @ all

That was a lot of work - but who will read it in a hurry or need?

It has to be organised:

Suggestion - as it looks like that all new members who look for help in
a specific case DO NOT READ THE INFORMATION respectively IGNORE IT.
Usually they ask for an advice, but when they got it from the real pros,
they argue in a way like its not true and the "bad guys" in the forum
hide the truth.

There was an interesting post:
expert-advice-shuts-your-brain-down-t11789.html

As you can see, I suggested to start with a "waiting period" for new
members, where they are not able to write to the forum, but they
would be able to see who are the real pros here and are then (perhaps)
willing - if still in need for help after that period - to accept the advice.

It might also be good, to switch all new members within that period
automatically to "basic information pages" every time they enter
the forum. ( I dont know, whether this is easily to set up, if yes, it
could be done even if the waiting time is not acceptable ).

After that few days the forum could send automatically a mail "waiting
period passed" to that new member.

This might increase the quality and also the politness within the forum.

Perhaps is worth to start a discussion on that with all members?

++
falther


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 Post subject: Re: Results of the D.I.Y (Do It Yourself) solutions.
PostPosted: April 10th, 2009, 5:43 
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@ falther

Generally you have right.
I can agree this.
On the old days, i was a man who reads a lot from this forum about 2 years (!) before ask the first question. :)
Anyway this suggestion needs a lot of reorganising, because the new members most % comes for "quick help".

I have a suggestion wich is simpler:

@ Maysoft, can you modify the forum for let the members vote and add a ranks or comments for each other?
If we can get "+ points" the new members can trust more if a "real pro" say something....

What do you thing gurus?

Regards,
Janos


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 Post subject: Re: Results of the D.I.Y (Do It Yourself) solutions.
PostPosted: April 10th, 2009, 8:05 
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@Janos

They wont read that either....

As long as someone has no picture about the "pros" in this forum, all members
of this forum are equal for "newbies" in terms of knowledge. They dont read the
information at the registration, they wont see the point-system, they want to

have their problem solved as quick and as cheap (if possible for free) as possible.
They dont think of and wont look at anything else.

The only solution: Put them on hold for a while, that they calm down to switch on
(hopefully) their brain and eyes.

+++
Walter


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 Post subject: Re: Results of the D.I.Y (Do It Yourself) solutions.
PostPosted: April 10th, 2009, 9:42 
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falther wrote:
@Janos

They wont read that either....

As long as someone has no picture about the "pros" in this forum, all members
of this forum are equal for "newbies" in terms of knowledge. They dont read the
information at the registration, they wont see the point-system, they want to

have their problem solved as quick and as cheap (if possible for free) as possible.
They dont think of and wont look at anything else.

The only solution: Put them on hold for a while, that they calm down to switch on
(hopefully) their brain and eyes.

+++
Walter


Basically agree with you, but i know some case is really urgent, and need to be handled.
But anyway, this can be handled by PM. :)
If the nebie helps another newbie, this is the worst...
But if somebody see the page first, can't judge who is a newbie, who is a pro who want to help, and who is who only see and laugh on the poor people in here...

I still think, the point-system is worth a try anyway.
I think more chance for good and less to not good.


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 Post subject: Re: Results of the D.I.Y (Do It Yourself) solutions.
PostPosted: April 10th, 2009, 13:36 
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Joined: September 2nd, 2008, 12:14
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Location: Austria / Europe
Hmmm....

More or less all questions which could arise in the future are allready asked
somewhen in this forum. Therefore one only would have to search for it to
get the answer for the "new" question.

Infact we got the points allready. The number of the posts. We could use
that for a ranking system: I saw that in other forums, that after a specific
amount of posts your status becomes "higher" automatically.

Thats easily adaptable in the software, I would ask for bold letters for the
pros. Like "professor" or "outstanding professional" etc.

But even with this system, you wont keep the quick, silly and incomplete
questions out of the forum. There should be a barrier - which can in some
way (perhaps with a form to be filled out COMPLETELY) passed.

That system could also avoid the software spams which we faced here
from time to time - or - those newbies putting their post into each topic.

+++
Walter


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 Post subject: Re: Results of the D.I.Y (Do It Yourself) solutions.
PostPosted: May 9th, 2009, 4:33 
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The problem is with that, some real pro have not too much time to be active in here, so have only some, but valuable messages....
The other hand, there is some "kid" who have a lot of time to speak some things wich is good or not.

I can agree, we need to count in the posts counter, but not only this!

Additionally, the question is hard about the new regs can or can't open a new topic immediately...
If we denied this, we can avoid the spammers. :)

Janos


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 Post subject: Re: Results of the D.I.Y (Do It Yourself) solutions.
PostPosted: May 9th, 2009, 10:26 
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Quote:
The other hand, there is some "kid" who have a lot of time to speak some things wich is good or not.

:D :D :D :D

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 Post subject: Re: Results of the D.I.Y (Do It Yourself) solutions.
PostPosted: May 9th, 2009, 10:38 
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I don't want to go personal... :D


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 Post subject: Re: Results of the D.I.Y (Do It Yourself) solutions.
PostPosted: May 9th, 2009, 10:53 
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No problem. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: Results of the D.I.Y (Do It Yourself) solutions.
PostPosted: May 11th, 2009, 2:05 
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Posts: 760
Hello everyone,

I'd like to provide my comments on this.

This is what I have learned from running a number of web communities including HDDGURU:

1. There will always be newbies who don't read anything but scream "HELP ME" or ask already answered questions. There is NO WAY to stop this without significant changes to the community. Actually, threads started by newbies are often become useful for other newbies.

Side note on "waiting period": please keep in mind that most people are reading the forum for some time without registering, and then, when they want to ask a good question or even contribute/help someone else, they attempt to register only to find out they have to go through some "waiting period" (in case we implement such a thing).

2. The best thing you can do about something you don't like is ignore it (or, if it is something inappropriate then report it). Posting angry comments will only result in more flames.

3. From my experience, points/ranks system is either does no effect or does damage to a healthy community. It sometimes works in heavily moderated/teenager forums, but not on a community like HDDGURU. (we actually had such system here on HDDGURU for a year, and I don't think anyone even noticed it!)

4. We do not have that many "Screaming newbies" here at HDDGURU. The percentage of such people is actually very low for such a community. I am pretty sure you meet such people more often in real life than here. Please also keep in mind that almost any normal person can turn into a "screaming newbie" under certain circumstances (important data loss/misunderstanding/etc). By the way, I have just went through last 20 new user registrations on HDDGURU, and none of them posted anything "bad".

5. (side note) The healthiest/most productive community is formed when there is little to none moderation involved.

To summarize:

1. Compared to other communities, HDDGURU community is healthy, without any major issues.

2. If we want to really "get rid" of newbies, then we will have to change the format of HDDGURU. Example: paid subscriptions, invitation-only forum, etc.

3. The best thing to do is to be more tolerant and refrain from posting offensive comments.

PS. About spam: couple weeks ago I have implemented some new anti-spamming measures. They will prevent new spam bots from signing up (although they will not stop handmade sign-ups). However, I am still cleaning up spam bots registrations before these measures were implemented, so we may still see a spam post once in couple weeks for some more time. Please simply report these spam posts, and I will take care of them immediately. If spam continues, then I will implement couple more things, a 100% reliable but somewhat inconvenient for newly signing up users.

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 Post subject: Re: Results of the D.I.Y (Do It Yourself) solutions.
PostPosted: May 11th, 2009, 3:38 
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Thank you maysoft. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Results of the D.I.Y (Do It Yourself) solutions.
PostPosted: May 11th, 2009, 4:13 
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What about sending newbies and troublemakers to other more suitable forum/website?


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 Post subject: Re: Results of the D.I.Y (Do It Yourself) solutions.
PostPosted: May 11th, 2009, 11:59 
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Quote:
BlackST


:( :( :( :( :( :( :(

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 Post subject: Re: Results of the D.I.Y (Do It Yourself) solutions.
PostPosted: May 11th, 2009, 17:50 
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BlackST, why would you want something like that?

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 Post subject: Re: Results of the D.I.Y (Do It Yourself) solutions.
PostPosted: May 12th, 2009, 8:54 
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It's an idea : people don't want to hear that their sole option most of the time would be paying a pro, we cannot give advice that would disclose proprietary info, we won't give advice to put data at risk, so it's a talk between deafs.
OR.. the better choice would be "SET IGNORE MODE" :).


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