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 Post subject: Re: Results of the D.I.Y (Do It Yourself) solutions.
PostPosted: May 12th, 2009, 13:01 
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BlackST wrote:
It's an idea : people don't want to hear that their sole option most of the time would be paying a pro, we cannot give advice that would disclose proprietary info, we won't give advice to put data at risk, so it's a talk between deafs.
OR.. the better choice would be "SET IGNORE MODE" :).


As i see, on some ways, maysoft are right.
This is an open forum, what you want, is a closed, or limited.
Anyway, this is not a bad idea, setting up one TOP topic, wich is for the gurus only, not for the newbies....
What do you think? :)

Janos


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 Post subject: Re: Results of the D.I.Y (Do It Yourself) solutions.
PostPosted: May 12th, 2009, 13:57 
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Anyway, this is not a bad idea, setting up one TOP topic, wich is for the gurus only, not for the newbies....
What do you think?


I think Gurus already have the Salvation / Acelabs forum that they will only access when the pay the expensive (or less expensive) products....
HddGuru should be free to anyone willing to help and learn.
If people want to talk in private there is allways PM, e-mail, msn, etc ...
What is the point of the forum if people can't talk ?
Let's not forget that most of the topics here are started by newbies and people (sometimes gurus) guive advice, very valid and good advice that can help other newbies too and things can be learned if a person is willing to read the forum.
If people want to keep secrets, simply don't talk in the forum and answer in private or in other way. There are already so many foruns on the internet, just build your own forum for "gurus only" and select what for you is a "guru" based on whatever criteria that you desire, but one thing is certain, you will never have more than a few persons that can be count by the fingers of your hands on that forum, and HDD Guru will allways be the reference for anyone, anywhere on the data recovery field.
If a guru don't want to share, simply don't do it, but it's not nice to have a section of gurus that newbies can't access and those same gurus continue to have access to the newbie section when somethimes someone clever, even a newbie, can guive some valid advice that the gurus will be learning from.
If you want to create a board for guru-only, at least create a rule that disallow the gurus to be on the general forum too. That way will be fair !!!

By the way we should fight against descrimination ... we are on the XXI century for God sake !
lol

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 Post subject: Re: Results of the D.I.Y (Do It Yourself) solutions.
PostPosted: May 13th, 2009, 1:16 
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Spildit,

I got your point exactly!

But the general question (wich is offtopic :mrgreen: ) was, how to avoid the the cases like this:
hard-drive-died-please-help-t12188.html
/period/ :mrgreen:

This cases scares me, because i really want to help. :(
If the help is DIY type or not, and the customer needs to pay for the special environment etc...
And i am not talking about the bussiness!!!
Just clearly helping for people a little similar way like yours.... ;)

With the separaition on a shared (cross-readable) forum, maybe the newbies can better understand the point, of who can do what, and who cant do the same....
In the most of the cases, the newbie comes for an exactly problem, maybe search for it, maybe not, founds a topic, wich have inside a solution for some pro, and he thinks, he is a "beginner-pro" too, and he can do that too....
Remember that, the clever person is, who knows, what he are don't know! :)
As i see, you are close to this limit. :wink:
But anyway, you are still not reached it, because sometimes you share a bad ideas too, a wrong solutions too....
Think about the forum is a "blog", and your bad suggestions will be there forever, and if you say one bad word, maybe a lot of people will read this, and render hes data to unrecoverable, just for one innocent bad suggestion...
Got it?

I think, the best way is, if the coming newbie can easily judge who is saying "gold", who is saying "something", and who is who always watching for bussiness and not else!

Until this happens, we will see a lot of screaming newbies, who will find some info, who will gets some good advice wich takes a lot of money for he wich is not looks like too good, and the newbie will decide from partial informations, wich is really bad!
(Bad for the newbie, because he will lost the important data, and bad for the potential DR company wich can't get a little money to be more good, and help for more people...
Than this case is good for who? :shock: )

For me and the most of the gurus too(,i think), who really want to help, this is really bad to see. :(
I think, this situation is definitely need to be solved.

@maysoft:
What do you think?

Janos


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 Post subject: Re: Results of the D.I.Y (Do It Yourself) solutions.
PostPosted: May 13th, 2009, 1:48 
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I made a closed forum on MSN/MULTIPLY not addressable by search engines. It cut out noobs and whiners, at least.


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 Post subject: Re: Results of the D.I.Y (Do It Yourself) solutions.
PostPosted: May 14th, 2009, 4:30 
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That cited case is not representative for a newbie, that is just stubborn. I consider myself a newbie and was shocked how ignorant that person was. In such a case one deserves to lose one's data but most of the gurus were answering quite tempered and gave solid advice and warnings.

I am here to read about problems that can occur with HDDs. What I'm interested in when I start a topic here is not to steal anyone's wisdom which is the basis for his daily work. What I rather seek is advice what kind of problem my drive has: DIY or professional. And if it's for a professional the gurus here can give rough estimates if it's a 200$ or a 2000$ job for a pro.

And I don't think that there are many cases where a DR business loses a customer because he succeded in DIY with help from here. Many try DIY just because the data is not that valuable to them and the DR prices are too high for them. But they know they may fail.

Hopefully hddguru stays an open forum where newbies can learn without feeling the immediate urge to open a DR business themselves.

Best regards
weaker


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 Post subject: Re: Results of the D.I.Y (Do It Yourself) solutions.
PostPosted: May 14th, 2009, 7:24 
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Weaker,

The problem is, there are a LOT of type of people's thinking.
I have seen more cases, when the data is REALLY important, and the customer really want to pay anything for it, but before arrived, the drive was opened, played, sctarched with screwdriver, platters removed and so on... :(
The data loosing cases not always simple!

Anyway, i think the best is, if we can make 3 levels in the forum:
1. "any" thing - an open forum, like this.
2. "guru" level - only some person can write here, but anybody can read it.
3. PM level. :D

In this way we have not solved anything, because the coming newbies don't know the levels, and will scream in the 1st, but don't know, who is an another newbie, and who is a pro.
This is why i suggested some type of mark to the profiles....

Janos


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 Post subject: Re: Results of the D.I.Y (Do It Yourself) solutions.
PostPosted: May 14th, 2009, 14:57 
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Posts: 166
.

I agree with both Maysoft and Spildit, HDDGuru to remain an open forum for all.


Quote:
fo·rum (fôrm, fr-)
n. pl. fo·rums also fo·ra (fôr, fr)

1.
a. The public square or marketplace of an ancient Roman city that was the assembly place for judicial activity and public business.
b. A public meeting place for open discussion.
c. A medium of open discussion or voicing of ideas, such as a newspaper or a radio or television program.

2. A public meeting or presentation involving a discussion usually among experts and often including audience participation.

3. A court of law; a tribunal.

[Middle English, from Latin; see dhwer- in Indo-European roots.]

forum
Noun
1. a meeting or medium for the open discussion of subjects of public interest
2. (in ancient Roman cities) an open space serving as a marketplace and centre of public business
3. (in South Africa) a pressure group of leaders and representatives [Latin]


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 Post subject: Re: Results of the D.I.Y (Do It Yourself) solutions.
PostPosted: May 14th, 2009, 17:58 
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@N.C.

But we have already the situation that people are helping others out via PM if they don't want to write it in public. I think this is a very good solution and up to the individual to decide what to make public and what not.
Therefore I think the forum like it is today is organized very well and I wish that it will stay like that.


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 Post subject: Re: Results of the D.I.Y (Do It Yourself) solutions.
PostPosted: May 14th, 2009, 18:14 
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weaker wrote:
@N.C.

But we have already the situation that people are helping others out via PM if they don't want to write it in public. I think this is a very good solution and up to the individual to decide what to make public and what not.
Therefore I think the forum like it is today is organized very well and I wish that it will stay like that.


But, there is a huge difference, if the newbie gives an advice in PM.
The others can't see it, and only one drive will ruined, not many more......

Think about this again, please. :)

Janos


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 Post subject: Re: Results of the D.I.Y (Do It Yourself) solutions.
PostPosted: May 17th, 2009, 19:36 
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Yes it's true that some will read the tip and just try it for themselves without asking if the posting applies to their situation, too. If they just mindlessly apply the tip they may damage their drives and lose the data. So what? Not everyone can be wrapped up in cotton wool. People need to think a little about what they're doing. Especially if they are gambling with their data. IMO the gurus here write quite clear warnings (if needed) when they post tips.

But the reverse situation also applies: If a tip is wrong and hidden in a PM there won't be any discussion about it and someone may lose data unnecessarily. (OK, it's only one person but he could have been helped).
If someone's not often around here, it's hard to know whose tips to trust (OK, post count perhaps).

Anyway, better help via PM than no help at all :D

Just my 2c


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 Post subject: Re: Results of the D.I.Y (Do It Yourself) solutions.
PostPosted: May 17th, 2009, 20:01 
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I have a better idea ! Just close HDDGuru. Period !
Problem solved.
No more newbies with lack of intelligence asking stupid questions, no more annoying people asking for help and trying to figure out how things work and no more wasting our time - as pros - to spoon feed anyone !
What's the point of HDDGuru ? We are all pros and we are here to share only among us things about the workings of the HDD but for ellite people only, as we can't afford to loose money. We already have our acelab forum because we have already payed $$$$ to them so let's just talk there and close HDDGuru for good because one of those days people might start to share anything usefull here and we will not be able to charge what we want for DR ......

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 Post subject: Re: Results of the D.I.Y (Do It Yourself) solutions.
PostPosted: May 18th, 2009, 0:07 
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The idea behind of all of this is not to close down the forum. It is to help out people to understand that there are certain things that are physically possible to do on their own and then there are things that just require the knowledge of a professional. It is hard to determine from some posts which falls into what catagory. But after probing and asking a lot of question you can finally get some clear answers to make a detmination as to what is best for the data on the drive. To go ahead and explain in some details how to fix the drive on their own or be realistic that it is impossible for them to do this on their own. People here are correct when they say will a Doctor tell you how to remove the cancer that is eatting away at your system or will he tell you that he need to do it himself. Well with a hard drive it is almost the same. There is a type of cancer eatting away at the drive and depending on how far it has gone depends on who can remove it and save the drive. Also it is good if people here will listen to the advise that is given. Maybe then the answer would not be so bad to hear all the time. I think that reading and learning all that can be done from the forum before posting is not such a bad idea. It is better to understand more so when you do post the answer will be given so that you will understand what they are saying to you.

Status is not such a bad idea so that people can understand that what they are reading is a good answer and not just something that will destroy their drive and data. Not everyone wants to hear it has to go to a pro for repair. They understand that is the time it is going to cost money to get back what they have lost. Yes there are some who can do small repairs on their own like lost partitons, deleted files, burned TVS. But when it comes to knocking heads, spindle motor, and platter change who do you belive in to do this work. Yourself being fresh off the street and walking into this forum for the frist time or someone that has been doing this for 10 to 25 years and understand what it takes to save the drive and get back the data off of it.

OK that is all do not want to go on. Think that all suggestions are good, waiting period. learning to search forum before posting, status for answers that will save the person's drive but making a special section only for pros might hurt a few people's feelings if they are not invited to be in that sections. Here if things were cool and the new people really needed help and had or were low income families maybe there could be a section in here like they do for legal help. The person could pay for repair on a payment plan. Know we are not bankers but due to the economy now a days it is hard to come up with large sums of money for DR recovery. Maybe that could help ease the pain in the recovery cost of the drives. Just an idea but don't pay attention to me. Thank for my 2 cents.

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 Post subject: Re: Results of the D.I.Y (Do It Yourself) solutions.
PostPosted: May 18th, 2009, 5:23 
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No comment...


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 Post subject: Re: Results of the D.I.Y (Do It Yourself) solutions.
PostPosted: May 18th, 2009, 12:44 
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@poehere
I will just learn about firmware issues, PCB issues and Logic Recovery.
I will leave the Head Stack Replacement for you guys.
I will publish all that i found, i might even write some step-by-step guide to unlock drives with pictures and so on ...
:D :D :D
And i will not make any more questions either, that way the chalenge will be harder but if i publish what i found it will be fair, because i'm sharing what i've discovered !

Also, DR is not my priority in life, as you might imagine, so i will be less active here but i will publish whenevr i have time.

Lets see how much time it will take until i'm, kiked off or until someone find out my address and kill me ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Results of the D.I.Y (Do It Yourself) solutions.
PostPosted: May 18th, 2009, 12:48 
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Quote:
People here are correct when they say will a Doctor tell you how to remove the cancer that is eatting away at your system or will he tell you that he need to do it himself.


If i want to be a doctor i can go to college and learn, or at least assist to the classes even if i don't have the degree and can't work on medicine, or even buy books.
If i want to learn DR ..... The first thing that i have to figure out is where the true usefull information is and that will force you to learn Russian and move to foruns/places where people share. If you don't know Russian/Chinese you are pretty much in trouble and will not go further.

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 Post subject: Re: Results of the D.I.Y (Do It Yourself) solutions.
PostPosted: May 19th, 2009, 13:34 
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Spildit@

You are free to do what you want and to think as you please. Just remember that in doing so you are not only hurting yourself but others. This is not a game to be played to get even with some and hurt others. Do as you see fit but if you want respect then go about it another way and not on this track you are on right now to destroy all that is here for others.

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 Post subject: Re: Results of the D.I.Y (Do It Yourself) solutions.
PostPosted: May 19th, 2009, 14:14 
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Quote:
This is not a game to be played to get even with some and hurt others. Do as you see fit but if you want respect then go about it another way and not on this track you are on right now to destroy all that is here for others.


Sharing knowledge = destroy all that is here for others ???

Nice ;)
Are you sure ?

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 Post subject: Re: Results of the D.I.Y (Do It Yourself) solutions.
PostPosted: May 19th, 2009, 15:15 
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Spildit@

Imagine you have learned quite a while to get a specific position respectively
a specific income. Suddenly you have to learn, that someone you thought you
helped with hints here and there - publishes openly all the information which
costed you a long time to learn, understand, energy and money.

Imagine this for any profession you can think about. How would you feel if it
happens to yourself?

---

Commercially thoughts: How many "big cases" do you really think are out there?
Definitely, not so much. So what makes the DR specialists stay alive - that are
the manny small and medium cases. And as there is today mainly payment only for
recovered data - its not only a fight for the business, but also for daily survival.

And now - there is a guy in an international forum - declaring "I will collect all
information acquirable and publish it, because I want to do that and I dont
care about you."

---

Reading your posts in the past - specially those where you reacted like a little
child who found something impressing new and presents that to everyone around -
was somehow strange (for an adult), but somehow nice aswell - to see someone
using his brain and doing own research.

I dont know your age, but if you are adult, then you are clever, but brutal and dum.
Is it for becoming "the person who disclosed DR secrets" ?

If you are a youngster ( I may say that because I am 54 ) please use your good brain,
read again my first clause of above - and rethink this matter.

+++


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 Post subject: Re: Results of the D.I.Y (Do It Yourself) solutions.
PostPosted: May 19th, 2009, 16:32 
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Quote:
Spildit@

Imagine you have learned quite a while to get a specific position respectively
a specific income. Suddenly you have to learn, that someone you thought you
helped with hints here and there - publishes openly all the information which
costed you a long time to learn, understand, energy and money.

Imagine this for any profession you can think about. How would you feel if it
happens to yourself?


If a person got a computer virus the information on how to fix that is easy available on the internet.
Still people go to seek IT assistence to fix those problems.
I'm just playing fair, trying to give a chance for people to learn how to kill some drives at the firmware level.
Do you think the guy at the store fixing computer virus don't have any work to do just because the information on how to fix it is on the net ?
The difference is, it's easy to learn, so many people who want will learn, prices will drop because if i quote $2500 USD for a virus clean up people will have a choice to go somewhere else and have it done for less.

Also i'm just working at the firmware level, and that is not what Data Recovery is exclusivelly about. You can still have your $$$$ doing head stack replacement on your clean room, you can also sell PCBs on Ebay, or drives, or whatever,
The percentage of drives with firmware problems are very small when compared with the other kind of problems.
And at any rate i'm just having fun learning. If people start to learn instead to use PC-3000 or such expensive tools it should be better for everyone.
After all the propriatary vendor commands are propriatary from Maxtor, Seagate, Samsung, etc .... not Ace, not Salvation ....

If the can mess with those commands that don't belong to them to build tools and sell them at an overpriced amount why can't i try to use the same commands to teach people who really need them for free ? At least i can't be blamed of using other one inventions to make money for myself.

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 Post subject: Re: Results of the D.I.Y (Do It Yourself) solutions.
PostPosted: May 19th, 2009, 16:41 
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@ phoere, spildit

The sharing of knowledge is generally good, i am absolutely sure.
We need to think not for we only, but for the other people too.
I don't think to periodically re-invent the wheel is good for the people all over ther world.

But there is 2 thing wich is important:
1. Sharing a BAD/missunderstood knowledge is really bad, and make a change for a lot of people to ruin hes data forever.
2. There is a lot of methode/technique wich needs practiced/skilled person/hands to do it , and NOT FOR A NEWBIE!

Please keep this in mind!

Janos

Ps: the info, wich are in the newbies or beginner/average DR people's head is all in the open internet already.
So re-share it is not a problem, but without the environment, or re-share it with some missing/missed parts is only bad for everybody!

This is why i am suggested the separated part of the forum wich is readonly by the beginners....


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