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 Post subject: Geek Squad
PostPosted: October 27th, 2011, 9:12 
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Just received a drive from a customer that said the Geek Squad at Best Buy put his hard drive in the freezer. Before it was just "flaky", now it doesn't boot.

To be continued after diagnosis...


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 Post subject: Re: Geek Squad
PostPosted: October 27th, 2011, 16:07 
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PM sent, please reply if possible


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 Post subject: Re: Geek Squad
PostPosted: October 27th, 2011, 16:50 
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The result.


Attachments:
freezerdamage.png
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 Post subject: Re: Geek Squad
PostPosted: October 27th, 2011, 17:03 
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Location: In your hard drive.
Thats freezer burn! :D

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 Post subject: Re: Geek Squad
PostPosted: October 27th, 2011, 18:02 
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But even seeing this, people will STILL freeze their hdds hoping to save a few $$$

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 Post subject: Re: Geek Squad
PostPosted: October 27th, 2011, 22:09 
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Seagate's HDD product manuals specify a non-operating temperature range that goes down to -40C. I'd like to see their test setup.

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 Post subject: Re: Geek Squad
PostPosted: October 27th, 2011, 23:35 
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Nice media damage. Typical for Hitachi
I don't think freezer has anything to do with it

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 Post subject: Re: Geek Squad
PostPosted: October 28th, 2011, 2:02 
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Hitachi's desktop drives appear to be rated for 5C to 60C operating, and -40C to 70C non-operating:
http://www.hitachigst.com/tech/techlib. ... _final.pdf

Some of their 2.5" drives are rated for an ambient operating temperature of -30C to 85C:
http://www.hitachigst.com/tech/techlib. ... N4K100.pdf

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 Post subject: Re: Geek Squad
PostPosted: October 28th, 2011, 2:26 
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I tend to agree with Doomer.... this type of damage is typical of these drives. I have seen this many times, and they've never been near a freezer. Having said that, I would NEVER condone placing a drive in the freezer to "Magic" away it's troubles. You may as well leave it on your workbench overnight and hope that the Hard drive fairies come in and do their thing for you..... :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Geek Squad
PostPosted: October 28th, 2011, 8:21 
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I believe in this case freezing the drive did result in the damage. Condensation alone can cause the heads to come in contact with the platter. Also when the condensation freezes, ice crystals form on the platter.

According to the customer the PC was able to boot but would eventually crash. After having the PC worked on, which included freezing the drive, the PC would not boot and the hard drive made scratching noise. Now obviously it is possible that something else went wrong that they did not disclose to the customer, like dropping the drive on accident. It is also possible the hard drive had damage to it and attempts to boot over and over caused more damage.

While driving it is typical to blow a tire, yet there are many causes. As is with drive malfunctions.


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 Post subject: Re: Geek Squad
PostPosted: October 28th, 2011, 10:18 
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Jar wrote:
I believe in this case freezing the drive did result in the damage. Condensation alone can cause the heads to come in contact with the platter. Also when the condensation freezes, ice crystals form on the platter.

Here we go again
There is no condensation.

It was discussed every year on multiple forums for at least past 7 years. The conclusion is - no condensation

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 Post subject: Re: Geek Squad
PostPosted: October 28th, 2011, 16:01 
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Doomer wrote:
Jar wrote:
I believe in this case freezing the drive did result in the damage. Condensation alone can cause the heads to come in contact with the platter. Also when the condensation freezes, ice crystals form on the platter.

Here we go again
There is no condensation.

It was discussed every year on multiple forums for at least past 7 years. The conclusion is - no condensation

Are any of these "multiple forums" in English? If not, could you provide some URLs?

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 Post subject: Re: Geek Squad
PostPosted: October 28th, 2011, 17:32 
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It was discussed on this forum
And it was discussed at least 3 times(that I know of) on this forum - http://forum.ixbt.com/?id=11

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 Post subject: Re: Geek Squad
PostPosted: October 29th, 2011, 14:19 
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Location: In ur HDD !
Nice design made on the platter . hahahaha


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 Post subject: Re: Geek Squad
PostPosted: October 29th, 2011, 17:41 
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Searching this forum just results in similar threads where people claim that condenstion forms on the platters. Yours appears to be the only dissenting voice, but you don't say much more than "physics doesn't work that way". So not much useful stuff here ...

OTOH, here is what I get when I search for "condensation" at ixbt.com:
http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Ah ... %8F+doomer

Here are two threads on the subject:
http://forum.ixbt.com/topic.cgi?id=11:22373
http://forum.ixbt.com/topic.cgi?id=11:36520-34

Unfortunately neither Google nor Babelfish were able to translate the resulting URLs directly, so I needed to cut-and-paste bits of the conversation into the translator. I could have misinterpreted the resulting output, but ISTM that there was no real consensus. However, AIUI you claim that condensation doesn't form because there is no significant temperature difference inside the HDA. At least one other individual claims that condensation is likely to form because of the temperature gradient that results from a difference in the rate of cooling of the platters and the surrounding air. For example, a user might transfer a drive directly to his freezer after having just removed it from his computer on a hot summer day. I presume this is one of the reasons why HDD manufacturers actually specify a maximum temperature gradient (in degrees per hour). However, it is unclear whether this spec is to prevent condensation, or to prevent damage to the drive due to thermal shock.

Given that Hitachi's EnduraStars are able to operate at -30C, this would tend to confirm that condensation is not an issue, even at sub-zero temperatures. This then begs the question, what is different about them? Morever, if there is no condensation, then what prevents regular desktop drives from operating at sub-zero temperatures if their materials can withstand -40C?

BTW, why does Google translate the Russian word for "drive" as "screw"?

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 Post subject: Re: Geek Squad
PostPosted: October 29th, 2011, 17:57 
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fzabkar wrote:
BTW, why does Google translate the Russian word for "drive" as "screw"?

because it's not a "drive" word, it's slang
The Russian word "винт" directly translates as "a screw". And it comes from word "винчестер" which means "winchester" and "winchester" was a name for old hard drives

"винт" also means "propeller" and also slang word for methamphetamine derivatives

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Last edited by Doomer on October 29th, 2011, 18:02, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Geek Squad
PostPosted: October 29th, 2011, 17:58 
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fzabkar wrote:
For example, a user might transfer a drive directly to his freezer after having just removed it from his computer on a hot summer day.

And that would result what?
FYI there is no direct metal touch of platters and the base, so the platters will be heating up mostly through the air inside

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 Post subject: Re: Geek Squad
PostPosted: October 29th, 2011, 18:08 
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fzabkar wrote:
Given that Hitachi's EnduraStars are able to operate at -30C, this would tend to confirm that condensation is not an issue, even at sub-zero temperatures. This then begs the question, what is different about them? Morever, if there is no condensation, then what prevents regular desktop drives from operating at sub-zero temperatures if their materials can withstand -40C?

Mostly firmware and data density

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 Post subject: Re: Geek Squad
PostPosted: October 29th, 2011, 18:18 
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Doomer wrote:
fzabkar wrote:
Given that Hitachi's EnduraStars are able to operate at -30C, this would tend to confirm that condensation is not an issue, even at sub-zero temperatures. This then begs the question, what is different about them? Morever, if there is no condensation, then what prevents regular desktop drives from operating at sub-zero temperatures if their materials can withstand -40C?

Mostly firmware and data density

Go on, spoonfeed me.

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 Post subject: Re: Geek Squad
PostPosted: October 29th, 2011, 18:30 
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Doomer wrote:
The Russian word "винт" directly translates as "a screw". And it comes from word "винчестер" which means "winchester" ...

Thanks for the language lesson. :-)

BTW, when I started with hard drives, we also referred to them as Winchesters.

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