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trodas

Post subject: Change old low HDD to a CF card?

Posted: September 18th, 2015, 18:12

Joined: June 7th, 2006, 6:19
Posts: 13
Location: Czech republic

Segate 13G ST313021A on Pentium 90 @ 125MHz:

Average - 6.4MB/sec - now this is SPEEED! :p

...

I wonder, if anyone have in operation slower HDD

...

Therefore I wonder, if someone have a experience with replacing such SLOOOW HDDs with PATA to CF adapter and CF card(s)? The latest models promise very fast speeds - 160MB/sec is quite above PATA possibilities:

SanDIsk Extreme PRO 32G CF card

...and since the adapters are just wires, connecting the CF card to PATA interface (CF cards work on same PATA interface!) and only in best cases, you can choose the voltage (3.3V or 5V) and you get the power and activity lights:

DeLock 91620 PATA to CF

...then there should not be any problem of using CF cards as old PATA HDD replacement(s). Only problem I hear, that there should be changed bit on the card somewhere, that change the device type from removable to fixed. Then it should act as normal HardDriveDevice.

But maybe I missed something...? Do anyone have experience with this? Could someone share tips, software for the change (from removable to fixed) and experience in general?

_________________
"It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong." - Voltaire

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HaQue

Post subject: Re: Change old low HDD to a CF card?

Posted: September 18th, 2015, 23:56

Joined: December 4th, 2012, 1:35
Posts: 3844
Location: Adelaide, Australia

I have used CF Cards as OS primarily on WRAP Boards http://www.pcengines.ch/wrap2e1.htm.
but these were designed for CF.

I found the best thing to do is simply get started and try it out. then as you run into issues (if you even do) just sort them out.

from my bookmarks you should be able to gather everything you need:
http://www.fccps.cz/download/adv/frr/cf.html - this page talks about signals and modes and probably all you need.

this talks about the utility you mentioned:
http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/CompactFlash_boot_drive

Quote:

SanDisk Extreme

SanDisk used to provide a utility (when asked) under NDA to change the type bit to Fixed disk. It has however changed it stance on this and now refuses to provide it. This utility (ATCFWCHG.COM) however can be found for download at various places (try Google).

You will need to boot DOS and run it with the CF configured as either the master on the primary IDE interface or the master on the secondary interface. It will not work if the drive is attached as a slave or to any other interfaces.

To set a SanDisk Extreme adapter attached to the primary IDE interface to Fixed disk
ATCFWCHG.COM /P /F

To set a SanDisk Extreme adapter attached to the secondary IDE interface (Ultrabay) to Fixed disk
ATCFWCHG.COM /S /F

NOTE!

It seems that the ATCFWCHG.EXE utility is incompatible with SATA to IDE bridges, such as found in the X41. In those cases you will have to connect the CF card to another computer or ThinkPad with a regular IDE (PATA) interface to change the flag, after which you can put it into the ThinkPad X41.

Be interested in your successes and failures if any

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trodas

Post subject: Re: Change old low HDD to a CF card?

Posted: September 19th, 2015, 15:02

Joined: June 7th, 2006, 6:19
Posts: 13
Location: Czech republic

Thank you for your support! First let me show, what I did:

Since SanDisk is not going to reply any time soon with the 3.3V/5V question, I tried with the default 5V setting the DeLock adapter I mentioned earlier with very old, 0.5G CF card SanDisk SDCFH. It does support PIO 4, but no DMA and the speed is very slow:

http://s15.postimg.org/3te86uf23/HDTune ... FH_512.png

Tested on ASRock 775Dual-VSTA (P4, 3.8GHz WinXP, alligned). Also works (or more precisely, get detected) on the target Asus TXP4-X, so so far, so good. Except the speed, lol.

Now the question is - what voltage to use for the SanDisk Extreme PRO 32G CF card and how to change the removable bit to fixed, so there will be the caching in Windows possible.

...

Feed up with waiting, I tried it and the good news are, that SanDisk Extreme PRO 32G CF card works well with 3.3V settings! There are the result, enabling Smart a 32bit mode transfer did nothing, PATA133 is supported, but it is not going to get higher. Sadly. Still, I think that this is a reasonable speed improvement:

However, now to bad news. The CF card is completely useless, unless someone tell me how to change the removable bit to fixed. Period. You cannot use the CF card for anything w/o that. Two examples:

I use Mini Tool Partition Wizard Pro to setup the drive on boot CD - it let me allign the partitions - when creating second partition (one 4G FAT32 for OS, rest for DATA and NTFS = usable settings for waza), it tells me, that I cannot use that partition under Win, as Win recognize only ONE partition on removable device. I was like... that it is, I'm screwed.

So for lolz, I started the install. It want well even at 83MHz FSB with the ATI Rage XL card (IDE HDD refused to work under such conditions, it worked only when S3 Trio64 is used at that clock), but then I get to the drive partitioning and problems arise. D partition is invisible (unpartioned space, lol) and there is no way to create a new partition there, because on removable drive, only one partition is supprted. So OK, I try installing and using only the 4G partition... but no! It cannot install, because this partition is NOT compatible with WinXP.

So basicaly, w/o the change from removable to fixed, any usage of any CF card as HDD replacement is doomed.

...

I'm quite mad at SanDisk - they should rename themselves as ScamDisk, because they are selling not CF cards, but CF compatible *) cards, with the *) exception for the possibility to change removable to fixed bit. I believe, that there is open possibility to lawsuit against SanDisk and any other CF card producing company, that produces products, that does not meet the CF card specifications. Because this is false advertising and misleading labeling of product. This is not a CF card, period.

...

About the removable and fixed bits:
I found myself two ways, ATM, that attempted to flip the removable / fixed bit on my SanDisk CF cards. I have own a oldie SanDisk 5V and 0.5GBy big CF card (SDCFH-512) too. The second tested card was the SanDIsk Extreme PRO 32G (SDCFXPS-032G) CF card.

1 - there is a program called BootIt v1.07, that offer the flipping between the removable and fixed devices:
http://www.getusb.info/flip-your-bit-usb-utility-to-make-local-drive/
It does promise that it will work (despite showing my 32G CF card as 18G) and it even claim to work:

...but the device stays as removable. Both my CF cards cannot be changed. It should work good on USB drives... but it does not work on both mentioned CF cards.

2 - there is program called atcfwchg.com:
http://www.ehow.com/how_7811193_set-cf-card-fixed-mode.html
Again it claim to flip the removable bit to fixed on CF card, connected thru PATA to CF card adapter into a PATA interface. The usage is shell and it is simple:
atcfwchg /P /F
That should set the CF card, that reside on the primary IDE channel to fixed mode. In reality it output this error:

Quote:

D:\>ATCFWCHG /P /F
NAND Athens ID Drive Config Word (Fixed/Removable) Change Utility Version 1.4.
Fail (error #20)
D:\>

So changing the "most important bit" on any CF card is not possible for these SanDisk cards, witch make them virtually useless for any PC usage, as for example, two partitions are not possible on removable device under Windows, while it is not a problem on fixed device...

There are also "solutions", like a diskmod-0.0.2.2, witch is basically a driver that trick Windows into treating all devices as fixed. Yet that is not going to help me to be able to install Windows on the CD card, therefore I cannot attest on it's functionality of quirks or bad things that happen, when you use it. I saw video of this driver working well on Win 8.1, but since the change is not permament ON THE DEVICE and it is just a Win patch, then it does not interest me one bit.

So far, I'm clueless. Hopefully the information I gather will help someone... On SanDisk forum this message I posted disappeared very quickly (under 20 min)... so, beware, users. SanDisk does not sell CF cards, but compatible CF cards with the exception that the most important change you are forbidden to do it and they will even actively seek and eradicate all informations regarding the topic...

_________________
"It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong." - Voltaire

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fzabkar

Post subject: Re: Change old low HDD to a CF card?

Posted: September 19th, 2015, 23:59

Joined: September 8th, 2009, 18:21
Posts: 15532
Location: Australia

ISTM that the term "removable" is ambiguous in that it can describe numerous dissimilar storage devices. A removable CF card is not the same thing as a removable USB mass storage device.

The ATA/ATAPI standard describes two types of devices, ATA and ATAPI. ATA devices are things such as HDDs and SSDs whereas ATAPI devices are optical drives, magnetic tapes and the like. ATA devices use ATA commands whereas ATAPI devices use SCSI commands which are encapsulated within an ATA PACKET command.

In the case of ATAPI devices, the "removable bit" is bit #15 (and #14) of word #0 of the Identify Device information block. An ATA device clears this bit whereas an ATAPI device sets it. AFAICT, the problem is that a CF card uses ATA commands (with CFA extensions), but identifies itself as an ATAPI device.

IIUC SanDisk's ATCFWCHG tool attempts to modify this Identify Device bit in the card's firmware. ISTM that this tool should be run in a real DOS environment, not from a Windows DOS box. Even then, it may be that this tool is not universal, ie it may be restricted to "Athens" flash controllers ???

In the "other" forum, I pointed you to a URL where someone demonstrated how to create a bootable Windows XP environment on a CD card by using a Linux Grub boot loader. Did you try it?

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trodas

Post subject: Re: Change old low HDD to a CF card?

Posted: September 20th, 2015, 17:27

Joined: June 7th, 2006, 6:19
Posts: 13
Location: Czech republic

Quote:

the "removable bit" is bit #15 (and #14) of word #0 of the Identify Device information block. An ATA device clears this bit whereas an ATAPI device sets it

And is there any hardware way to force it for being fixed?

Quote:

SanDisk's ATCFWCHG tool attempts to modify this Identify Device bit in the card's firmware. ISTM that this tool should be run in a real DOS environment

Good point! That might be "it". I will try it in the real DOS then and report the findings.

Quote:

this tool is not universal, ie it may be restricted to "Athens" flash controllers

Possible. Any idea, what controller the SanDisk Extreme PRO 32G CF card use? Or how to determine it?

And since this is firmware "thing", then the question is obvious: how to download and flash back the firmware of the card? Because once this is possible (and I believe it could be accomplished), then the firmware could be changed and that bit could get flipped to fixed this way.

Quote:

I pointed you to a URL where someone demonstrated how to create a bootable Windows XP environment on a CD card by using a Linux Grub boot loader. Did you try it?

No, since that is clearly not what I asked / what could help me out. I need faster HDD for my old Socket 7 machine. As fast, as possible. It have 32G limit... and I need install various Windows on it, WinXP, WinNT and Win98se. And since Windows does not support more that one disk on removable device, then all tricks that might allow me to install WinXP on removable CF card are useless. For waza I need to have system drive as FAT32 and data partition as NTFS. No IF or BUTs, that it is.

All I need is to change the removable bit to fixed.

_________________
"It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong." - Voltaire

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fzabkar

Post subject: Re: Change old low HDD to a CF card?

Posted: September 20th, 2015, 20:07

Joined: September 8th, 2009, 18:21
Posts: 15532
Location: Australia

Years ago I modified the firmware in a Ricoh 2x CD burner. This ATAPI device was limited to PIO modes but its stablemate supported DMA. This made me wonder whether the firmware had been crippled to create artificial performance classes.

I downloaded an official firmware update for my model, located the Identify Device / Identify Packet Device data block within the firmware image, flipped the DMA bits, recalculated the checksum, and flashed the modified file to the drive. The result was a marginal but consistent performance improvement, and the DMA box remained checked in Windows Device Manager.

I suspect that a similar approach could work for the SanDisk CF card, although finding a firmware update might prove to be difficult, if not impossible.

You can see the card's Identify Device data with a tool such as CrystalDiskInfo. If you can provide these data, then I can at least show you the ATA/ATAPI bit (aka "removable" bit). A tool such as HDAT2 can also dump these data, plus the Identify Packet Device data if your card supports it.

I'm not a data recovery professional, so other forum members would be best placed to tell you whether the ATCFWCHG tool is suitable for your card.

_________________
A backup a day keeps DR away.

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jermy

Post subject: Re: Change old low HDD to a CF card?

Posted: September 20th, 2015, 22:28

Joined: March 19th, 2015, 15:01
Posts: 1387
Location: isreal

what about a virtual PC that runs another OS ?

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HaQue

Post subject: Re: Change old low HDD to a CF card?

Posted: September 20th, 2015, 23:58

Joined: December 4th, 2012, 1:35
Posts: 3844
Location: Adelaide, Australia

maybe you should get a different brand of CF card that has support. Read the specs you need and find a card that has them.

would something like this work?
http://au.mouser.com/new/apacer/apacercompactflash/

sorry I am not familiar with all these modes anymore and what supports what, it has been years

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fzabkar

Post subject: Re: Change old low HDD to a CF card?

Posted: September 21st, 2015, 4:04

Joined: September 8th, 2009, 18:21
Posts: 15532
Location: Australia

I expect that SanDisk's CF card would behave exactly as the ATA/ATAPI standard mandates.

Here are excerpts from the standard:

Quote:

7.16.7.2 Word 0 [of Identify Device data]: General configuration

If the device is an ATA device, then bit 15 shall be cleared to zero.
...
Devices supporting the CFA [CompactFlash Association] feature set shall place the value 848Ah in word 0.

Quote:

7.17.6.2 Word 0 [of Identify Packet Device data]: General configuration

Bits (15:14) of word 0 indicate the type of device. Bit 15 shall be set to one and bit 14 shall be cleared to zero to indicate the device is an ATAPI device.

Bits (12:8) of word 0 indicate the command set used by the device. This value follows the peripheral device type as defined in SPC-4 (e.g., 05h indicates a CD/DVD device)

Here are partial dumps of Identify Device data for a WDC WD2500BB-55RDA0 hard drive and an LG GSA-4040B DVD burner:

Quote:

*******************************************************************************
HDAT2 v4.7.1 (c) 2009 CBL 02.05.2015 16:06:10.012
*******************************************************************************
Dump IDENTIFY DEVICE [WDC WD2500BB-55RDA0]
*******************************************************************************

00 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 0A 0B 0C 0D 0E 0F 0123456789ABCDEF
Ú--------------------------------------------------------------------¿
0000 ³ 7A 42 FF 3F 37 C8 10 00 00 00 00 00 3F 00 00 00 zBÿ?7È.....?... ³
0001 ³ 00 00 00 00 20 20 20 20 57 20 2D 44 4D 57 4E 41 .... W -DMWNA ³
0002 ³ 33 4B 33 30 39 34 33 38 00 00 00 10 32 00 30 32 3K309438...2.02 ³
0003 ³ 30 2E 4B 30 30 32 44 57 20 43 44 57 35 32 30 30 0.K002DW CDW5200 ³
0004 ³ 42 42 35 2D 52 35 41 44 20 30 20 20 20 20 20 20 BB5-R5AD 0 ³

Quote:

*******************************************************************************
HDAT2 v4.7.1 (c) 2009 CBL 02.05.2015 05:51:13.064
*******************************************************************************
Dump IDENTIFY DEVICE [HL-DT-ST DVDRAM GSA-4040B]
*******************************************************************************

00 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 0A 0B 0C 0D 0E 0F 0123456789ABCDEF
Ú--------------------------------------------------------------------¿
0000 ³ C0 85 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 À….............. ³
0001 ³ 00 00 00 00 32 4B 33 38 55 37 35 47 32 31 20 38 ....2K38U75G21 8 ³
0002 ³ 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 00 00 00 00 00 00 33 41 ......3A ³
0003 ³ 34 30 20 20 20 20 4C 48 44 2D 2D 54 54 53 44 20 40 LHD--TTSD ³
0004 ³ 44 56 41 52 20 4D 53 47 2D 41 30 34 30 34 20 42 DVAR MSG-A0404 B ³

The data are little-endian, so word 0 is 427Ah for the HDD (an ATA device) and 85C0h for the DVD (an ATAPI device).

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trodas

Post subject: Re: Change old low HDD to a CF card?

Posted: September 21st, 2015, 5:18

Joined: June 7th, 2006, 6:19
Posts: 13
Location: Czech republic

HaQue -

Quote:

maybe you should get a different brand of CF card that has support

Well, first at all - I want this FAST CF card to work for me, that is why I bought it on the promise, that it can be changed to fixed. Since the promise is broken, then unless the company tech support specificaly confirm that this IS either sold as fixed device, OR there is the tool that flip the bit & money back, if it does not, then I will nut do any other blind buys.
I'm not that insane or desperate to make it work.

Let's look at your link: http://au.mouser.com/new/apacer/apacercompactflash/

1) NONE of these CF cards offer 32G in size and since I need several variants of OS, then I would like to have 32G size

2) speed suxx, 40MB/sec read times? Is that a joke or what? SanDisk boast 160MB/sec and get 101MB in reality. Nothing slower is acceptable for me, onyl faster.

3) there is no single word about these cards being FIXED devices, instead of removable...!!! And that is the utmost important information, if it is not mentioned, then it will NOT be fixed device.

3) NONE of these cards are awailable to buy, all are out of stock anyway and marked as OBSOLETE items... :roll:

So a little bif of research could go a long way, don't you agree? :wink:

fzabkar -

Quote:

Years ago I modified the firmware in a Ricoh 2x CD burner. This ATAPI device was limited to PIO modes but its stablemate supported DMA...

You are pretty good!

Congratulations. All I need is to change the bit to fixed, that it is. It should be possible to dump the firmware from the device and then flash it back (changed), right?

Quote:

located the Identify Device / Identify Packet Device data block within the firmware image, flipped the DMA bits, recalculated the checksum, and flashed the modified file to the drive

And could you repeat that for the CF card of mine? Sounds rather similar... but there is no update of firmware I'm affraid...

Quote:

You can see the card's Identify Device data with a tool such as CrystalDiskInfo.

Sorry, nope. Next tool. This one did not let me choose the device:

Lame.

Quote:

A tool such as HDAT2 can also dump these data, plus the Identify Packet Device data if your card supports it.

Do I need registred version for that? Because the demo just show many devices I did not have and that it is:

That is probably not what it should do...

Quote:

I'm not a data recovery professional, so other forum members would be best placed to tell you whether the ATCFWCHG tool is suitable for your card.

Hopefully someone notice this thread, or do you have some tips for members that should be able to tell? I tried the ATCFWCHG tool on the target machine, booting from floppy. Same result:
Fail (error #20)

So it is probably not suitable tool at all for this job. Either because the Athens flash controller is not used, or the device is not supported. Still there could be a tool like this with higher version that v1.4 - and/or such tool can be diassembled and examined and patched to support new SanDisk CF cards...

_________________
"It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong." - Voltaire

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HaQue

Post subject: Re: Change old low HDD to a CF card?

Posted: September 21st, 2015, 5:28

Joined: December 4th, 2012, 1:35
Posts: 3844
Location: Adelaide, Australia

I don't know much about this really but I do know you won't be editing the Sandisk firmware unless the CF card allows the util through commands to do it

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fzabkar

Post subject: Re: Change old low HDD to a CF card?

Posted: September 21st, 2015, 20:02

Joined: September 8th, 2009, 18:21
Posts: 15532
Location: Australia

I wasn't aware that HDAT2 had a demo version. AIUI the full version is still freeware, but you must run it from DOS, not a Windows DOS box.

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A backup a day keeps DR away.

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HaQue

Post subject: Re: Change old low HDD to a CF card?

Posted: September 21st, 2015, 23:55

Joined: December 4th, 2012, 1:35
Posts: 3844
Location: Adelaide, Australia

A lady went to the doctor, and the doctor says "I have bad news. you have cancer." The lady was shocked and says to the doctor, do you mind if I get a second opinion??

He says, "Sure! I will give it to you right now, You have cancer"

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trodas

Post subject: Re: Change old low HDD to a CF card?

Posted: September 22nd, 2015, 10:10

Joined: June 7th, 2006, 6:19
Posts: 13
Location: Czech republic

HaQue - you are trolling now...

fzabkar - okay, I take a look for something more functional and run it from DOS. Meanwhile I read this:
http://forums.sandisk.com/t5/All-SanDis ... 138/page/2

Quote:

A friend of mine remove my Sandisk Extreme 32 Gb without "secure remove", and all my data of the flash disk was gone. To recover the partition, I used Partition Guru Pro, but accidentaly I used the option "HDD mode", and now mi flash drive shows as "fixed disk". Is there a way to set it back to "removable"? I google a lot, and found the REMOVABLE MEDIA BIT issue, but there is no software to change it. Any clue?

For me, the HDD mode did not do anything. Sadly. Perhaps some buggy version of the PartitionGuru could work that way...

But for me, the PartitionGuru is not helping in any way

I wish it could, but it does not :evil:

_________________
"It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong." - Voltaire

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HaQue

Post subject: Re: Change old low HDD to a CF card?

Posted: September 23rd, 2015, 1:08

Joined: December 4th, 2012, 1:35
Posts: 3844
Location: Adelaide, Australia

not trolling, just lightheartedly saying that just because you want something, doesn't mean it is possible or easily do-able.

but, anyway.. Have you tried in a command prompt in windows(elevated) Diskpart? you can set some stuff in there, maybe research it. also there may be more control in a Linux OS.

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fzabkar

Post subject: Re: Change old low HDD to a CF card?

Posted: September 23rd, 2015, 4:33

Joined: September 8th, 2009, 18:21
Posts: 15532
Location: Australia

I'm finding the term, "removable", to be very confusing, but I think I understand the problem a little better now.

Version 3 of the ATA/ATAPI standard provided a "removable media device" indicator in bit 7 of word 0 of the Identify Device data, but this was rendered obsolete in more recent standards. CF cards now identify themselves with a value of 848Ah in word 0. This means that older software will see them as ATAPI devices (bit 0 = 1) with removable media (bit 7 = 1). I can't see how that makes any sense.

Attachment:

ATA-3_word_0.jpg [ 80.25 KiB | Viewed 26345 times ]

Attachment:

ATA-8_word_0.jpg [ 76.1 KiB | Viewed 26345 times ]

Bit 2 of word 82 in ATA-3 enabled a device to report that it supported the removable feature set (eg DOOR LOCK, DOOR UNLOCK, MEDIA EJECT), but by ATA-8 this bit was obsolete.

Attachment:

ATA-3_word_82-83.jpg [ 91.01 KiB | Viewed 26345 times ]

Attachment:

ATA-8_word_82.jpg [ 178.49 KiB | Viewed 26345 times ]

Bit 2 of word 83 in ATA-8 indicates whether the device supports the CFA feature set, but the same bit was reserved in ATA-3.

Attachment:

ATA-8_word_83.jpg [ 179.44 KiB | Viewed 26345 times ]

I'm not sure what Partition Guru does to convert a USB drive to "HDD mode", but I suspect it may use the SCSI MODE SELECT command to flip the Removable Media Bit (RMB), assuming that is possible. USB mass storage devices use a SCSI command set and identify themselves via the INQUIRY command. Bit 7 of byte 1 is the RMB.

Attachment:

INQUIRY.jpg [ 152 KiB | Viewed 26345 times ]

Working Draft AT Attachment 8 - ATA/ATAPI Command Set (ATA8-ACS):
http://www.t13.org/documents/uploadeddo ... a8-acs.pdf

AT Attachment-3 Interface (ATA-3):
http://www.scs.stanford.edu/11wi-cs140/ ... -3-std.pdf

Universal Serial Bus Mass Storage Specification For Bootability:
http://www.usb.org/developers/docs/devc ... ot_1.0.pdf

USB Mass Storage Class - UFI Command Specification:
http://www.usb.org/developers/docs/devc ... -ufi10.pdf

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fzabkar

Post subject: Re: Change old low HDD to a CF card?

Posted: September 23rd, 2015, 4:54

Joined: September 8th, 2009, 18:21
Posts: 15532
Location: Australia

This was word 0 in the very early days of the standard (1994):

Code:

Word.Bit      Description
==========================
15      0 = reserved for non magnetic drives
14      1 = format speed tolerance gap required
13      1 = track offset option available
12      1 = data strobe offset option available
11      1 = rotational speed tolerance is > 0.5%
10      1 = disc transfer rate > 10 Mbit/sec
9       1 = disc transfer rate <= 10 Mbit/sec but > 5 Mbit/sec
8       1 = disc transfer rate <= 5 Mbit/sec
7       1 = removable cartridge drive
6       1 = fixed drive
5       1 = spindle motor control option implemented
4       1 = head switch time > 15 usec
3       1 = not MFM encoded
2       1 = soft sectored
1       1 = hard sectored
0       0 = ATA reserved (should be zero)

http://www.users.on.net/~fzabkar/IDE-id ... ND-ATA.DOC

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trodas

Post subject: Re: Change old low HDD to a CF card?

Posted: September 23rd, 2015, 12:28

Joined: June 7th, 2006, 6:19
Posts: 13
Location: Czech republic

HaQue -

Quote:

not trolling, just lightheartedly saying that just because you want something, doesn't mean it is possible or easily do-able

It's not jsut me, every advanced SanDisk user want that and people have done many hacks and crazy drivers to workaround this issue. But I believe that this can be done, when there are programs that did it for older devices...

Quote:

but, anyway.. Have you tried in a command prompt in windows(elevated) Diskpart? you can set some stuff in there, maybe research it. also there may be more control in a Linux OS.

I can use 10 000 disk partioning softwares under any OS, but that is not going to change the internal driver settings, eg. the removable bit. What is necessary, is to take the firmware off the device, mod it and flash it back. That is not happen by some disk partitioning programs, even there is one user that claim this is what happend for him...
I *WISH* that happend for me too, but wish is not quite going to cut it.

fzabkar - okay, I run the HDAT2 in DOS and I get these infos:

HDATCOPY.TXT

Code:

********************************************************************************
HDAT2 v5.0 (c) 2013 CBL  24.09.2015 17:43:41
********************************************************************************
Device information [SDCFXPS-032G]
********************************************************************************
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source        Cylinders    Heads    Sectors         Total sectors       Size
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ATA LBA28         62041       16         63              62537328   32.02 GB
    CHS           62041       16         63              62537328   32.02 GB
INT13h/BIOS        1024      255         63              16450560    8.42 GB
Ext.INT13h         3892      255         63                     0    0.00 KB
(* = invalid parameters)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Device model [ATA/SSD]                              SDCFXPS-032G
Manufacturer                                        unknown
Orphan (not useable) sectors                        62537328 [32.02 GB]
Translation/max. LBA mode                           ?/28-bits
Logical sector size [B]                             512
Physical sector size [B]                            512
Detect mode                                         PCI
ATA I/O port Base/Control/IRQ                       0170h/0376h/15
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ATA/ATAPI Identify Device
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Integrity word (optional)
   -> Signature: failed [reported 00h, should be A5h]
   -> Checksum : failed [reported 00h, should be 30h]
ATA major version                                   0000h
   -> not reported
ATA minor version                                   0000h
   -> not reported
Transfer mode: max. supported                       Ultra DMA 7/ATA166
Transfer mode: selected                             Ultra DMA 2/ATA33
Serial number                                       OAZ071115134539
Firmware                                            HDX9.03
Cache                                               1.02 KB
   -> Cache type: dual port
General Configuration                               848Ah = 1000010010001010b
   -> Removable device
   -> Protocol type: ATAPI
   -> Device supports the CFA feature set
Specific Configuration                              0000h
Maximum queue depth                                 1
Hardware Reset result                               604Fh = 0110000001001111b
   -> Device detected CBLID- above V[iH]
-> Device 0 Hardware Reset result                   01001111b
   -> device determined by: other method
   -> diagnostics passed
   -> did not detect the assertion of PDIAG-
   -> did not detect the assertion of DASP-
   -> responds when Device 1 is selected
Detected an 80-conductor cable                      YES
Multiword DMA transfer cycle time per word [ns]
   -> Minimum: 120
   -> Manufacturer's recommended: 120
Minimum PIO transfer cycle time [ns]
   -> without IORDY flow control: 120
   -> with IORDY flow control: 120
Security Status [vendor specific]                   0000h = 0000000000000000b
Master Password Identifier (Revision Code)          0000h
   -> Master Password Identifier feature is not supported
Time for Normal security erase unit                 not specified
Time for Enhanced security erase unit               not specified
Extended number of user addressable sectors         reserved
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Capabilities
   -> DMA supported
   -> LBA supported
   -> IORDY may be disabled
   -> IORDY supported
   -> Standby timer values shall be vendor specific
   -> [14] shall be set to one
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Command/Feature Sets supported                      ENABLED
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Power Management feature set                        NO
Write cache                                         YES
WRITE BUFFER command                                NO
READ BUFFER command                                 NO
NOP command                                         NO
Compact Flash (CFA) feature set                     NO
Advanced Power Management (APM) feature set         NO
48-bit Address feature set                          YES
FLUSH CACHE command                                 YES
FLUSH CACHE EXT command                             YES
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Advanced Power Management (APM) level value         00h
Acoustic Management (AAM): vendors/current value    00h/00h
Read/Write LONG: ECC bytes                          4
Read/Write MULTIPLE: sectors per DRQ data block     
   -> Maximum: 1
   -> Current: 0
CFA power mode                                      supported
   -> Maximum current [mA]: 500
Free-fall Control Sensitivity                       not supported
Number of data blocks per DOWNLOAD MICROCODE mode 3 not supported
Transport Major revision number: support            not reported
Transport Minor revision number                     not reported
SMART Command Transport (SCT) Command set           not supported
Trusted Computing feature (TCG)                     not valid
Nominal media rotation rate [rpm]                   not reported
Device Nominal Form Factor                          not reported
DATA SET MANAGEMENT                                 
   -> The Trim function is not supported.
LBA Range Entry (DATA SET MANAGEMENT) [sectors]     0
Additional Product Identifier                       not supported
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NV Cache
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   -> not supported
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Extended INT13h
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Extended INT13h support                             YES
Major/Vendor/Extension Version                      2.1/0.0/0.0
   -> EDD v1.1
Subset
   -> Fixed disk access subset: YES
   -> Device locking and ejecting subset: NO
   -> Enhanced Disk Drive (EDD) subset: YES
   -> 64-bit extension: NO
INT13h Identify Device support                      not detected
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Device Parameter Table (DPT)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Information flags
   -> The geometry returned in bytes 4-15 shall be valid
   -> Bits 4-6 are not valid
Block size [B]                                      512
DPT Extension (DPTE) pointer                        F000h:A5D0h
Key to presence of Device Path (BEDDh)              0000h
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Device Parameter Table Extension (DPTE)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Version                                             1.1 [11h]
Checksum                                            
   -> O.K. [reported DAh, should be DAh]
I/O Port base address                               0170h
Control Port address                                0376h
IRQ                                                 15
Head register upper nibble
   -> ATA DEV = Master
   -> LBA enable = YES
BIOS Vendor specific                                00h
ATA READ/WRITE MULTIPLE Block Count                 1
DMA information                                     20h
   -> DMA channel = 00h
   -> DMA type = 02h
PIO information                                     04h
   -> PIO type = 04h
BIOS selected HW specific option flags
   -> Fast PIO access
   -> Vendor specific translation
   -> HPA Active
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
********************************************************************************
HDAT2 v5.0 (c) 2013 CBL  24.09.2015 17:44:11
********************************************************************************
Dump IDENTIFY DEVICE [SDCFXPS-032G]
********************************************************************************

       00 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 08 09 0A 0B 0C 0D 0E 0F    0123456789ABCDEF
     Ú--------------------------------------------------------------------ż
0000 ł 8A 84 59 F2 00 00 10 00 00 00 40 02 3F 00 BA 03   Š„Yň.....@?.ş ł
0001 ł 70 3E 00 00 20 20 20 20 4F 20 5A 41 37 30 31 31   p>..    O ZA7011 ł
0002 ł 35 31 33 31 35 34 39 33 02 00 02 00 04 00 44 48   51315493...DH ł
0003 ł 39 58 30 2E 00 33 44 53 46 43 50 58 2D 53 33 30   9X0..3DSFCPX-S30 ł
0004 ł 47 32 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20   G2               ł
0005 ł 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 01 80                 € ł
0006 ł 00 00 00 0F 00 00 00 02 00 00 07 00 59 F2 10 00   .........Yň. ł
0007 ł 3F 00 70 3E BA 03 00 01 70 3E BA 03 00 00 07 00   ?.p>ş.p>ş... ł
0008 ł 03 00 78 00 78 00 78 00 78 00 00 00 00 00 00 00   .x.x.x.x....... ł
0009 ł 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00   ................ ł
000A ł 00 00 00 00 28 70 0C 74 00 40 20 00 00 34 00 00   ....(p t.@ ..4.. ł
000B ł FF 04 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 4F 60 00 00 00 00   ˙........O`.... ł
000C ł 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 70 3E BA 03 00 00 00 00   ........p>ş.... ł
000D ł 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00   ................ ł
000E ł 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00   ................ ł
000F ł 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00   ................ ł
0010 ł 00 00 46 43 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00   ..FC............ ł
0011 ł 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00   ................ ł
0012 ł 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00   ................ ł
0013 ł 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00   ................ ł
0014 ł F4 81 00 00 00 00 12 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 02 60   ô...........` ł
0015 ł 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00   ................ ł
0016 ł 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00   ................ ł
0017 ł 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00   ................ ł
0018 ł 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00   ................ ł
0019 ł 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00   ................ ł
001A ł 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00   ................ ł
001B ł 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00   ................ ł
001C ł 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00   ................ ł
001D ł 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00   ................ ł
001E ł 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00   ................ ł
001F ł 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00   ................ ł
     Ŕ--------------------------------------------------------------------Ů

HDETECT.TXT

Code:

********************************************************************************
HDAT2 v5.0 (c) 2013 CBL  24.09.2015 17:48:33
Options: 

DASD devices detect:

HDD: 2/2/2
FDD: 1/1

CMOS check:

CMOS battery power     : 80h -> O.K.
POST diagnostics status: 00h -> O.K.
Shutdown/Reset status  : 00h
   -> Power-on or Soft reset

Floppy drive detect:

CMOS: 1 floppy drive(s)
BIOS: 1 floppy drive(s)
1. Floppy drive: 3« 1.44 MB
Checked 1 floppy drive(s)

PCI scan:

Bus=  0, Device= 7, Function=1


1. BaseClass: Storage, SubClass: IDE
BaseClass = 01h, SubClass = 01h, Programming interface = 8Ah
Bus = 0, Device = 7, Function = 1, Header type = 00h
Host: Vendor ID = 1106h, Device ID = 0571h, Revision = 06h
Host vendor name: VIA Technologies Inc
Subsystem: Vendor ID = 0000h, Device ID = 0000h
Subsystem vendor name: unknown
Address 4: I/O port = E000h-E00Fh
Primary   channel: I/O Port 01F0h, IRQ 14 (compatibility mode)
Secondary channel: I/O Port 0170h, IRQ 15 (compatibility mode)
Bus Master: supported, primary: enabled, secondary: enabled
Bus Master Control Register: E000h
Built-In Self Test: not supported

PCI ATA devices:

[0/0 01F0h/03F6h/14] ST3320620A
[0/1 01F0h/03F6h/14] disabled or not present
[1/0 0170h/0376h/15] SDCFXPS-032G
[1/1 0170h/0376h/15] disabled or not present

Detect on-board ATA/ATAPI devices:

[2/0 01F0h/03F6h/14] already detected
[3/0 0170h/0376h/15] already detected
[4/0 01E8h/03EEh/0] disabled or not present
[4/1 01E8h/03EEh/0] disabled or not present
[5/0 0168h/036Eh/0] disabled or not present
[5/1 0168h/036Eh/0] disabled or not present
[6/0 0100h/0306h/0] disabled or not present
[6/1 0100h/0306h/0] disabled or not present

Detect ASPI devices:

ASPI not found

Detect BIOS INT13h devices:

BIOS number 80h: already detected
BIOS number 81h: already detected

Detect OS:

Detected OS DOS, version 7.10 Microsoft
DOS is in HMA

List of detected devices:

  1. '3« 1.44 MB' [ATA/FDD] 00h
  2. 'ST3320620A' [ATA/PATA] 80h
  3. 'SDCFXPS-032G' [ATA/SSD] 81h

15134539.BIX
included

What does look interesting is the Firmware HDX9.03 line. Time to ask SanDisk, if the provide updates on their firmware, because that would give us the flash tool for flashing it...

Quote:

CF cards now identify themselves with a value of 848Ah in word 0. This means that older software will see them as ATAPI devices (bit 0 = 1) with removable media (bit 7 = 1). I can't see how that makes any sense.

I see how that make sense. It is necessary to change the identify value of the device. Replacing the 848Ah value at word 0 with that, witch set (even being obsolete) bit to 0 in firmware could be the end of all the hassles and problems and headaches for thousads of users around the world.

Quote:

supported the removable feature set (eg DOOR LOCK, DOOR UNLOCK, MEDIA EJECT)

This is clearly for CDROM/DVDROMs.

Quote:

I'm not sure what Partition Guru does to convert a USB drive to "HDD mode", but I suspect it may use the SCSI MODE SELECT command to flip the Removable Media Bit (RMB), assuming that is possible.

No idea either. But in the HDAT2 I noticed option, that change the values set on the CF card (ATA device) back to default on device reset. What if that will be disabled and the bit is flipped? Should not that made a permament change...?

Attachments:

CFcard infos.zip [4.43 KiB]
Downloaded 585 times

_________________
"It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong." - Voltaire

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fzabkar

Post subject: Re: Change old low HDD to a CF card?

Posted: September 23rd, 2015, 16:24

Joined: September 8th, 2009, 18:21
Posts: 15532
Location: Australia

@trodas, I suspect that you will not find a firmware solution to your problem, but at least now you can avoid wasting your efforts on inappropriate solutions such as the USB tools.

Anyway, I think I know how Partition Guru converts a USB drive from removable to fixed.

Here is the structure of the Format Parameters page (03h):

Attachment:

FORMAT_PARAMETERS_03h.jpg [ 131.52 KiB | Viewed 26293 times ]

Bit 5 of byte 20 is the RMB. Seagate's SCSI reference states that this bit is not changeable for their HDDs. I wonder if this is universally true for USB flash drives, or perhaps there are some that allow modification. AIUI, this would be done via the MODE SELECT command, and the FORMAT UNIT command would then apply the changes. That could explain why the documentation for the Lexar tool and Partition Guru both state that the procedure is data destructive.

I notice that the peripheral device type reported by Identify Device is 04h. The SCSI standard assigns this code to "Write-once device (eg some optical disks)". So we have an ATA device with fixed media that identifies itself as a write-once ATAPI device with removable media. Can someone make any sense of that?

Attachment:

Peripheral_Device_Type.jpg [ 164.44 KiB | Viewed 26293 times ]

SCSI Commands Reference Manual:
http://www.seagate.com/files/staticfile ... 93068h.pdf

_________________
A backup a day keeps DR away.

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HaQue

Post subject: Re: Change old low HDD to a CF card?

Posted: September 23rd, 2015, 21:20

Joined: December 4th, 2012, 1:35
Posts: 3844
Location: Adelaide, Australia

USB devices use SCSI commands to operate, encapsulated in USB packets sure.. but in no way do any vendors follow any specs to the book. in fact some use undocumented/reserved parts all the time. Flash controllers are designed to support almost precisely what it needs to function in the required, intended way with little if any "extra" support for anything laying around not turned on or implemented. These are a tiny bit of ram, that isn't even a "full" ram but so small it swaps pages in and out depending on the functions it needs, usually some 8051 processor and some hardware or software ecc/xor/wear levelling circuits.

I have NEVER seen a Sandisk firmware update tool or update. And I have looked, a LOT. here are a few areas of sandisk I would like to research if a tool ever did show up.

I am wondering about the usage of the Sandisk util. I have seen some posts with the command slightly different to what you posted..

Code:

 I Simply use a USB floppy disk drive (TEAC FD 05PUB) used. 
 Start the program with the parameters at ATCFWCHG ATCFWCHG / S / 1 / F. 
 / S means IDE Secondary (Secondary);  / P means Primary 
 / 1 means slave HDD (because 0 = Master) 
 / F is fixed bit set (/ R removable) 
 The program comes back with the message PASS. 

 Now the CF card as a Fixed CF, thus as a normal HDD operating systems can be detected. 

AIUI, this util access the microcode of the CF card and I would think it would HAVE to be specifically designed for different models of the cards. meaning not universal to any other brand, and probably only works on a model or 2 and that's it

I really haven't had time to delve into this, but if I get a chance I might buy one of these cards(If I don't already have one) and do some testing.

could you post some clear pics of both sides of your CF?

also a conversation:

Quote:

Are you saying that Transcend SLC CF cards appear "fixed" to Windows 2000?

Quote:

Yes: Transcend has some CFs that appear as non-removable.

I want to add the the .com file was LEAKED, not released.. so really they had no intention of even us being able to make the CF cards fixed in the first place.

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