Disk cloning for recovery

[egotrip]

I have an old Dell from 15 years ago that has been plugging along.

Suddenly blue screens of death abound! Now I can run chkdsk on it and repair it enough to get into the OS and do what needs to be done, but the second I shutdown or reboot, blue screens abound and I need to repair again.

What I would like to do is take the drive out, use a USB adapter to take an image, and then drop the image on a brand new hard drive.

Does anyone have a method or some software that they would recommend to do this? I have tried a few pieces of software none of which worked exactly as I would have liked. Last time I did something like this I had to use Acronis true image boot disk, which isnt exactly what I want to do with this considering that this machine doesnt have a USB port.

Thanks!

[pclab]

If you search the forum, you can find some software that can clone your disk.

[poehere]

You have many choices in cloning by software. Some are dd_resuce, ddersuce, RCopy, winhex, RStudio to name a few right off for you on this one.

[egotrip]

Perhaps I should have stated, but I have tried a number of software packages in the past ...

I know which software is out there, I'm more asking about the particulars of

1) Creating an image of an IDE drive attached via USB which is damaged
2) repair the created image
3) Re-imaging a brand new drive with the previously repaired image

So any pointers on this process

I have the following software at my disposal: CloneZilla, Acronis True Image, Reflect, Easeus, etc.

[Vulcan]

Perhaps I should have stated, but I have tried a number of software packages in the past ...

Yes, I wish you'd given the info earlier - I just wasted time writing a reply

So how exactly did the software you've tried so far not work as you "would have liked"?

I know which software is out there

Based on your list below, I politely disagree.

I'm more asking about the particulars of

1) Creating an image of an IDE drive attached via USB which is damaged
2) repair the created image
3) Re-imaging a brand new drive with the previously repaired image

So any pointers on this process

Depends on the software you're using. Don't make us guess - what specific problem(s) are you having, when using which specific piece(s) of software?

I have the following software at my disposal: CloneZilla, Acronis True Image, Reflect, Easeus, etc.

Never heard of "Reflect", but at least 2 of those are not designed to cope with cloning of imperfect disks, and are hence not suitable if you have a disk problem.

However there are other possible reasons for chkdsk being a temporary fix, as you report. What evidence do you have that your problem is with your disk, and not something else causing filesystem corruption?

[egotrip]

Macrium Reflect is the products name

The problem that I have been having is generally that I can create an image of the drive connected through USB connector, but then when I go to take the image and restore it to a new drive connected through USB, I get errors.

The errors vary from product to product, but the end result is that I cant get the image onto the new drive. Most of the software I use is geared towards imaging the system drive itself, OR requires running a boot CD. I wish I had the specific errors for you, but I didnt think to record them and I dont have access to all of the software I attempt the cloning with at this moment. Most of these errors had nothing to do with the fact the image was coming from a machine I believe to be damaged, because I was using RAW format and it created the image seemingly fine. The problem is when I go to restore the image to the new drive. Again, dont have the exact errors with me. Sorry. My assumption is I either have the wrong software or the wrong technique.

If you think there is a product out there that does what I'm asking and I havent mentioned it .. Please let me know!! Some other software I have access to is DriveImage XML, Ghost (its been a long time since I last used it) and R-Drive. I have a copy of R-Drive but have never actually used it much.

I'm also thinking of trying Kleo ...


So the reason I think its a corrupt disk is because 1) Its old 2) Once I run chkdsk it seems to work fine for the time being, then the reboot.

If you have a method to verify my conclusion I'm all ears!

[Vulcan]

Based on your update, my view is that your dissatisfaction with the software you have tried so far, is that the original problem has not been correctly investigated & diagnosed - diagnose first; act second. As far as I can tell, you've been trying things without knowing the real problem, which is a recipe for lack of success

It may also be helpful if you think about the history of the system, and what could have changed between the system not having BSOD etc., and the start of those errors. New drivers? System physically moved? New hardware installed? etc. etc. Something obviously did change (whether you are able to identify it or not), since otherwise you would always have had the reported BSOD, and that's not the case.

The lack of exact errors makes it a waste of my time to guess about the problem - I could write an essay on the various possibilities, and I don't have that much spare time.

You've used a new phrase of "corrupt disk" - bear in mind that in 99.9999% of cases, a faulty disk gives much more specific errors, rather than silently corrupting data. IMHO you're confusuing things even more by using that phrase, as it suggests a level of knowledge about the problem, which I don't think you have. Corrupt filesystem (due to unreadable sectors or other reasons)? Perhaps - depends on the error messages you get from chkdsk, and whatever programs you use to try doing the cloning. Corrupt disk (implying a faulty disk that returns wrong data, but without you mentioning any read errors)? I doubt it.

As close as I can understand, with the minimal hard evidence in your update, the filesystem on the original disk is being corrupted (you mention "RAW format", I presume reported by Windows, which means the original filesystem type can no longer be determined) - but this is for unknown reasons, due to the lack of error messages you've been able to give. A disk fault is not the only possible cause. Other possibilities include a virus, other hardware at fault (CPU, RAM etc.) or power problems etc.

I haven't seen where you have mentioned the actual Windows version (if it's a 15 year old PC, and the OS hasn't been updated, then that's the era of Win95 and WinNT4). If HDDScan (in the file repository here) works on such an old OS (I've never tried), then that or your choice of any other simple disk scanning utility that might work on such an OS like perhaps WD Dlg (Data Lifeguard), or a bootable CD of MHDD can be used to check the disk for unreadable sectors (if your PC can boot from CD - it wasn't clear to me if you were saying yours could or could not).

If you have unreadable sectors on the original disk, then the cause is likely to be that hard disk (though could also be the interface) - so that result would help towards a diagnosis, but still would not explain why you report that the image can be created OK, and you report that you only get "errors" during the restore. That is not what would happen if the problems were with the original disk. Do you see what contradictions your description is highlighting?

If you have no unreadable sectors, then that suggests a different cause for the filesystem corruption, but doesn't tell us what they are.

Based on the lack of hard evidence so far, I'm not sure you'll be able to have someone diagnose this remotely - certainly I'm not committing to spend more time on this issue, as you've used all the time I can give, just getting this far. Other members might have more time to help you, when you've got some disk scanning results, or provide other hard evidence of the actual problem - or they might not. You might want to consider getting a local PC repairer to assist you with an accurate diagnosis of the problem.

For the future, please remember - hard evidence is needed for an accurate diagnosis. Apologising for the lack of detailed error messages or other evidence, while appreciated, is not a substitute for providing the evidence. The time-wasting caused by that lack of evidence, eats into the goodwill that each of choose whether or not to invest into each reported problem.

Good luck...

[egotrip]

It may also be helpful if you think about the history of the system, and what could have changed between the system not having BSOD etc., and the start of those errors. New drivers? System physically moved? New hardware installed? etc. etc. Something obviously did change (whether you are able to identify it or not), since otherwise you would always have had the reported BSOD, and that's not the case.

The system is currently running Windows NT 4.0 Workstation. There has been no software/driver/OS/movement/new hardware updates of any sort. We turn this machine on very rarely and with the singular goal of running some specific measurement software.

One day we turned it on and it blue screened. Its not connected to the internet and there are no floppies or CDROMs inserted to the machine as its the oldest in the office and has a single use. Also, if memory is the problem (or a motherboard for that matter, power supply ... POSSIBLE.) why would chkdsk momentarily alleviate the issue?

You've used a new phrase of "corrupt disk" - bear in mind that in 99.9999% of cases, a faulty disk gives much more specific errors, rather than silently corrupting data. IMHO you're confusuing things even more by using that phrase, as it suggests a level of knowledge about the problem, which I don't think you have. Corrupt filesystem (due to unreadable sectors or other reasons)? Perhaps - depends on the error messages you get from chkdsk, and whatever programs you use to try doing the cloning. Corrupt disk (implying a faulty disk that returns wrong data, but without you mentioning any read errors)? I doubt it.

Point taken.

If you have unreadable sectors on the original disk, then the cause is likely to be that hard disk (though could also be the interface) - so that result would help towards a diagnosis, but still would not explain why you report that the image can be created OK, and you report that you only get "errors" during the restore. That is not what would happen if the problems were with the original disk. Do you see what contradictions your description is highlighting?

While I'm sure your intention is good natured, I felt my original query was accurate. I asked if anyone had any experience with software or a specific method to clone/image the drive. I don't need assistance repairing the blue screen at this point as I'm fairly confident the 15 year old hard drive is the problem. If you had a quick recommendation for software that -should- work with the USB cloning I'm attempting to do, that would have been my goal. I am however willing to accept I should probably be attempting to fix the cause of the blue screen instead of cloning the drive.

I would normally apologize again for wasting both of our time, but I don't feel you have really given me anything I didn't already know. All you have done is high-light what I don't know, which is exactly why I asked for assistance from others that do. I'm going to assume your intention by responding in such a fashion was to assist me. For that I do thank you.

Now, if anyone has even the slightest interest, I will fire up the machine on Monday and see if I can get usable information.

[dick]

Hi, 15 years old, yes it might be a failing hard drive but you don't seem to be considering any other fault. It could also be a failing psu or motherboard. Check those 15 year old electrolytic capacitors!

Another tip is when a drive might be failing it is not usual to clone via usb as this could induce new problems. Any competent engineer would clone drive to drive or drive to image via the motherboard connector. And that would be on a different pc setup!

Use the cloning software you feel most comfortable with.

[Vulcan]

Great - a bit more info

The system is currently running Windows NT 4.0 Workstation. There has been no software/driver/OS/movement/new hardware updates of any sort. We turn this machine on very rarely and with the singular goal of running some specific measurement software.

One day we turned it on and it blue screened. Its not connected to the internet and there are no floppies or CDROMs inserted to the machine as its the oldest in the office and has a single use.

OK, so the most likely change is indeed a hardware problem - but a disk problem is not the only possibility (see my previous update). You'll notice that dick is highlighting the same concern to you in his message, as I did.

Also, if memory is the problem (or a motherboard for that matter, power supply ... POSSIBLE.) why would chkdsk momentarily alleviate the issue?

Because running chkdsk corrects the filesystem corruption at that point (actually "corrects" is the wrong word, but explaining exactly what chkdsk does is too long for here) - then the underlying fault (RAM, CPU, motherboard, power, whatever) then re-introduces the same filesystem corruption again. I've seen this before (repeated filesystem corruption) when there were RAM problems on machines of this era, so while I can't guess at the cause on your system from here, this type of possibility is not a total guess on my part.

Have you tried making a bootable memtestx86 CD and running that for a few days? Have you got any other diagnostics you could run on the rest of the system (PCtest or whatever)? Have you checked the Windows system event log for relevant entries?

While I'm sure your intention is good natured

It was.

I felt my original query was accurate. I asked if anyone had any experience with software or a specific method to clone/image the drive. I don't need assistance repairing the blue screen at this point as I'm fairly confident the 15 year old hard drive is the problem.

Indeed, I thought you had already decided on the cause - and that's the whole problem IMHO. I have seen no evidence (for or against) that the disk hardware is the problem. In fact you yourself have reported a behaviour which cannot be caused by the old disk, as I pointed out in my previous update!

I'll say it again: If, as you said before, your "problem" is with getting the clone image onto the new disk, then that is not a problem with the old disk, is it? But without exact details of what happens during that process (i.e. error messages), then we can't move forward to understanding the real problem, and then suggesting possible alternatives or solutions.

It's easy to give you wrong advice, because of the lack of hard evidence - I was taking the much more difficult route, to try to help you to receive good advice. But if you don't want to do the work necessary to provide that evidence, and prefer to get poor quality advice (i.e. guesses), please say so clearly now!

Or to put it another way:

(a) No more work by you, leading to guesses from others, leading to no real understanding and less chance of a resolution; or
(b) More work needed by you, leading to you providing data for better diagnosis by others, leading to better understanding of problem and more likely resolution.

Pick one.

If only you had given (or agreed to give) the exact error messages which you had received, then suggestions on different programs to avoid that specific problem (or, more probably, a diagnosis of the likely problem) would be easy. You're giving others nothing to work with, which is why you aren't getting the answer you want - at least not from me, because I was trying to give you good quality advice, and that needs evidence.

If you had a quick recommendation for software that -should- work with the USB cloning I'm attempting to do

It's impossible to give good advice without knowing what actual errors you're getting.

Or, to put it another way, at least one of those previous programs should have worked as expected, depending on what the exact problem is, and depending on the configuration and correct operation of the different machine being used for doing the cloning. That answers your specific question, based on the minimal information you've given, but it doesn't really help, does it?

As I said right at the beginning, trying to give you useful answers all depends on what errors you're getting, at what stage of the cloning process.

IMHO you'll also need to explain more about your intended use of USB. You've said that this machine has no USB (unsurprisingly for WinNT4, of course) - so you'll need to detail more about the PC on which you're attempting to do the cloning. How do we know that this other PC is working well-enough to be used for cloning? Don't assume that this is OK. Have you tried cloning another disk (any other working disk) on that PC and then using the clone disk, in order to test the process? That would be one of the first things I'd have done in your situation, but I don't know if you've done that?

I am however willing to accept I should probably be attempting to fix the cause of the blue screen instead of cloning the drive.

I didn't say fix the BSOD - I did say that the specific BSOD messages may be helpful to understanding the underlying problem on that PC. No-one knows, until you provide those error messages. In fact I suggest to provoke the problem a few times i.e. boot, BSOD, note the full message (or take a photo of the screen), chkdsk, reboot, see BSOD again - is every single part of the BSOD message identical each time or not? If not, then note it all again (or take another photo). Seeing identical, or different, BSOD can again be helpful in learning more about the underlying problem.

I would normally apologize again for wasting both of our time, but I don't feel you have really given me anything I didn't already know. All you have done is high-light what I don't know, which is exactly why I asked for assistance from others that do.

I'm disappointed, but not surprised, that you didn't see the value I have provided, in guiding you towards what you need to do. In addition to that diagnostic guidance, I've given detailed advice on an important step for you to take i.e. read-scanning the original hard disk - or did you forget that?

Like it or not, highlighting what you don't know but need to know, and then doing the work necessary to provide that evidence, is a standard part of formal troubleshooting. You can do some research on the Kepner-Tregoe Analytic Troubleshooting (ATS) process, if you don't believe me. I've got many years experience in the successful application of that, and other, diagnostic techniques. So I wasn't highlighting what you don't know, just to create work, or make you feel bad, or whatever is causing your reluctance! I was highlighting it because you providing that evidence would actually move the investigation forwards. Only then would you have a chance to receive good quality advice IMHO.

Anyone can guess at the cause of a problem, and tell you what to do by giving likely wrong advice, when you provide little data. Is that really what you want?

I'm going to assume your intention by responding in such a fashion was to assist me.

Yes, it really was. I have explained diagnostic techniques to too many engineers, over too many years, to be happy doing a half-hearted job. If you want someone to guess at the cause of your problem(s), without you doing any more work to provide data, then please say so clearly.

For that I do thank you.

You're welcome. I know that my responses have been "tough love" - necessitated by the need for brevity, to get my point across clearly, and to highlight that you are responsible for you not getting the answers you seek. You have the evidence (or the ability to get it - e.g. BSOD messages, error messages from cloning software, details of exact step-by-step progress you've used and what happened at each stage, diagnostic program results as I explain above, result of read-scanning that disk etc. etc.) in order to give others a chance of helping you. No-one can force you to provide that evidence, but you are responsible for the consequences of not doing so.

I have been surprised at your reluctance to work with me, and the failure to recognise that the lack of evidence provided is the major stumbling block here and to immediately provide it (or agree to do so).

It's very frustrating (and a waste of my time) for me to deal with a situation where the evidence needed to make progress could be provided by the person reporting the problem, but they argue that they don't need to provide it. It doesn't happen to me often (I normally get rather more respect!), but you're not the first, and I doubt you'll be the last. At that point, I learned that the best thing for me to do is simply to stop helping - they're the one with the problem; they're the one who asked for help; and if they knew enough to argue about the need to provide the data, then they would have known enough to solve the problem themselves! Life is too short for me to spend it on troubleshooting situations where people who asked for help, then argue with me.

I hope someone else helps you. Good luck and goodbye.

[egotrip]

Vulcan,

After reading your posts a couple more times, perhaps I misspoke. I have been very annoyed with this issue.

I might not particularly care for your tone, but I do admit that your information was very helpful and I did learn quite a bit from it. I don't expect you to feel obligated to reply, but if you do notice I do appreciate the time you spent attempting to help my process. The statements you made in the way I went about it do make sense to me.

I guess I was just expecting a quick response of "try this software, and then make sure you use this type of USB adapter" instead of something that might actually help me troubleshoot and diagnose the problem more accurate. I wasnt looking for the later, but in the long run I'm sure it might be more useful than what I was actually looking for.

I tip my hat.

[mattbrad2]

egotrip, I can tell you from experience that the disk is not necessarily the cause of your BSOD. Chkdsk running after the abnormal shutdown is of course normal but I would start by downloading hirens boot CD. This will contain all the tools you should need for the time being. Run one of the included ram tests, then move on to running mhdd to see if that drive has bad sectors. If its just a few, turn on remap (you'll see when you run the software) and scan it again. This will only be a temporary fix but would enable you to clone the drive using software you've mentioned previously without a hitch. Of course, this is assuming a lot of other variables. Like someone else pointed out, certainly check for blown caps on the motherboard. Try another power supply.

Then again, it *is* NT 4.x which is notorious for random BSOD's that seemingly come out of nowhere (and are a b*tch to pinpoint).

Good luck!

[egotrip]

Dick!!

Thanks for the tip. I tried cloning directly through IDE instead of using the USB connector and I had no problems. Worked like a champ!

Thanks much.