DIY: What's the big deal - discussion

[jono-ats]

It really annoys me when people hoard information like it's some special golden goose. With data recovery, it's not just knowledge people pay for, but the expertise to properly use that knowledge. I think the people that are worried about their 'tricks' getting out our the ones who probably have no expertise anyway; take away their PC3000 and where will they be?

and:

I have seen many here act like it's an exclusive club, and like they don't want to share their ball. That's okay. That sort of attitude eventually finds people like that playing by themselves.

You wanna know what annoys me, greyshores? It's when people come to this forum and expect a complete tutorial on how to recover their personal data for free and get rude and angry when they don't get the answer they expected.

Please give me a good reason why any "trick", "solution", etc. should be made immediately available to any stranger who cares to ask? Using the same "logic", if you are a professional broker on an anonymous stock market forum, should you not give away all of your investment tips for free, just because someone asks you? Even though you may have spent your career doing research, making mistakes, etc. to derive your own strategies?

Speaking of "playing by themselves," remember that you came here alone and by yourself asking information from a group. We will still be playing with our toys when you have moved along . . .

One very important thing that NOOBs don't seem to get is that recovery professionals are responsible for OTHER PEOPLE'S DATA. This means that most of us try to determine what are the best and safest practices and adhere to them. If you want to screw around with your drive and data and fail, oh well - you have no one to blame but yourself.

Most pros are reluctant to give out information also because they have no idea of what the skill level is of the recipient, and that good information in the wrong hands can be fatal to the chances of data recovery. Period.

If someone wants to reach out to help you, great. But if they don't, then try not to take it personally and at the same time recognize that the rest of the world does not revolve around trying to solve your personal problem(s).

[greyshores]

You wanna know what annoys me, greyshores? It's when people come to this forum and expect a complete tutorial on how to recover their personal data for free and get rude and angry when they don't get the answer they expected.

Of course that's annoying! Proper response is to tell them they should have had back ups. To point at them, laugh.

Please give me a good reason why any "trick", "solution", etc. should be made immediately available to any
stranger who cares to ask?

Ah, there, that's probably the place we won't agree. I believe information should not be hidden, period. That is why I think any "tricK", "solution" etc should be made immediately available to anyone who should find their way to a place such as this on the Internet. But then, way back, I was deep in security, and I saw enough troubles when people thought it nice to hide exploits. Obviously, the not so good guys liked to keep them hidden, so they could exploit it and profit off them, but the good guys did too, a lot, with many excuses, like if they published the exploits, the not so good guys would use them. Then, many sites came along that published exactly what was going on; many companies fixed things faster, then.

Perhaps if many people post obscure ways of talking to devices, manufacturers make it impossible to do without special equipment, and then all can point at people sharing information and say, "Ha ha, it's your fault!"

But, again, to answer, because, simply, information should be free. That said, no one forces you or anyone else to share, or share publicly. However, why get made when people ask? That they get mad isn't your problem, is it?

I'm happy to have come here and learn putting hard drives in freezers is a bad idea, so I'm joyous anyway.

Using the same "logic", if you are a professional broker on an anonymous stock market forum, should you not give away all of your investment tips for free, just because someone asks you? Even though you may have spent your career doing research, making mistakes, etc. to derive your own strategies?

Interesting analogy. If you come to an anonymous stock market forum, with that skill level, either you're:
1. Going to be doing more research, which means, you have stuff to learn, which means you probably should share and keep everything in balance and harmony.
2. You have nothing more to learn, and you've come to forum just to gloat at the little people, with their penny stocks.

With all fields, there are the basics; I'm not an accountant type, so I could say what those are. Likely, basic math, accounting, perhaps knowledge of statistics and many industries to know if they're good investments. Telling someone to pick up a Carnegie book, or a Buffet autobiography to get started down that path isn't too tedious, is it?

I think we're talking different things: To me, I think it's the greatest thing that the author of MHDD for example gives that way; made it. Because it's a great tool. If I come and ask you to log on to my system and run it, that to me is horribly rude, and that's what you seem to think I'm saying should happen. In your stock broker example, someone asking if it's a good idea to use [some algorithm] is much different than someone asking if they should be [x] amount of Paris Hilton stock, no?

Speaking of "playing by themselves," remember that you came here alone and by yourself asking information from a group. We will still be playing with our toys when you have moved along . . .

To be fair, I haven't asked a lot at all, have I?

Everyone on this forum is certainly not part of that same group. It seems there are many others like myself; looking for a place with other people who are experimenting and wanting to learn. Not everyone has a product they're selling, or are working for a company doing data recovery.

Yes, I know, there are also people who hit this with a search engine and want you to specifically recover data off their IBM Deathstar and know not why you won't.

One very important thing that NOOBs don't seem to get is that recovery professionals are responsible for OTHER
PEOPLE'S DATA.

That sounds fun. You know what I wonder? What school/place can I go to, to be a recovery professional? I just realized, in all my life, I never once have heard where such is taught. Never thought of that before.

want to screw around with your drive and data and fail, oh well - you have no one to blame but yourself.

Is this not the way it is for anything and everything in life?

Most pros are reluctant to give out information also because they have no idea of what the skill level is of the recipient, and that good information in the wrong hands can be fatal to the chances of data recovery. Period.

Yes! Though one does not follow the other. That is no reason to be reluctant to give out information, and that is what I've been saying. Information should be given out. Unless, of course, one has a vested interest in keeping it not given out, as for their livelihood. If everyone in the village can make boats, the boatmaker has no living.
On the other hand, most people are far far far too lazy to make their own boat, or even to understand the basics of taking measurements for the materials; no matter if you give them blueprints to do it.

But, "wrong hands can be fatal to the chances of data recovery" ---> NOT the pros problem. That someone doesn't use the information right is their fault, not the sharer/giver of information.

If someone wants to reach out to help you, great. But if they don't, then try not to take it personally and at the same time recognize that the rest of the world does not revolve around trying to solve your personal problem(s).

You say this well, and actually, that goes for everything; no one is entitled to anything. I must say it confused me seeing so many of the experts here being so aggressive towards those who aren't professionals at all.

Just to clarify, I need no help with anything (hard drive) related at this point. I have some (four) hard drives that seem to have some issues, (they're Seagates, maybe they started out their life with issues) but I've now other things I must do, so I mostly just lurk here, because I like the subject.

I was merely saying my opinion, and if we don't agree, that is okay. I appreciate you sharing your opinion back with me. Discourse is made of such things.

[jono-ats]

I don't have a problem with people asking technical questions. Heaven knows, I ask enough of them myself.

What bristles me is when people come to this venue with a sense of entitlement. "I want to play with your toys! It's my right, you know! You are selfish because you won't share! Bad, greedy person!!"

This is rare for me to vent. I tend to share info when I can and when it is appropriate.

Since you think all kinds of information should be shared, why don't you set an example?

Let's start with your social security number, bank account info including routing code, PIN numbers, & e-mail address and passwords? Post it right here for all to see. After all, knowledge and information are to be shared, right?

[greyshores]

When people come to this venue with a sense of entitlement. "I want to play with your toys! It's my right, you know! You are selfish because you won't share! Bad, greedy person!!"

If I say it like that, I apologize. It's the ones who say, "yeah, I know, but I won't tell you." If they say nothing at all, then that is their right. So it is their right to taunt, but, that bugs me, and what I say.

Since you think all kinds of information should be shared, why don't you set an example?
Let's start with your social security number, bank account info including routing code, PIN numbers, & e-mail address and passwords? Post it right here for all to see. After all, knowledge and information are to be shared, right?

Ah, but is that not personal information? Nude pictures of my woman, as well, and the like? That is different than knowing that Microsoft makes uses of proprietary API calls for their Winlogon, no? I think you know that I meant information that is non-personal. There is a huge distinction; now, I grant you this: You are 100% correct if we are to look at corporations as people, because seen that way, of course Seagate wants no one to know how to pick its locks!

Just so you understand, I see internet forums as pot luck dinners; and people who don't bring something, they should ask how to make something so they can bring it next time. That's different from going to a banquet at a restaurant, no?

On a complete tangent, by the way, what annoys me a lot? People who say you have no business using encryption if you have nothing to hide. I believe that we all have a personal responsibility to ourselves to keep that which is private to ourselves private. It's funny, because when people say they have nothing to hide, and no need for encryption, I say almost word for word what you said: Let us have your social, and your bank account, etc.

I really don't come across well. I'll say this: If I found something neat, that is undocumented, and let's me do something with any given product that you normally aren't able to do, (or perhaps shouldn't do?), I happily share. I wish I had something to contribute in this domain (hard drives) but I'm a newbie here. I've fixed many computers, but as I'm sure you're aware, most the time, if a hard drive has problems, it is simply replaced. And, the ones with important data, people such as me fixing computers, refer to real pros. I have had very few sample drives where there was data but person had no interest in paying a pro to do anything, so I played with no expectation of any success. Now, I have no real reason for this other than personal edification. Sure, if I learned some things the pros know, maybe I could monetize it, but that is not my objective. I truly do believe in sharing just for the joy of learning; that moment of enlightenment when it clicks for you.

I do realize that, amongst pros, such a thing is silly.

Do you know, I think we do agree, more than we disagree. You know what I dealt with, when I fixed a lot of computers? "My brother in Florida's a computer guy, and HE says that..." or "My son's in college, he's getting a CS degree, and he says..." or "My daughter's married to a guy that uses a computer at his work, and she says..."

Me, I always wanted to say, "Well, why have you brought it to me, if you know someone who knows so much?"

About as irritating as people wanting step by step for their specific drive, no?

[Doomer]

Do you know, I think we do agree, more than we disagree. You know what I dealt with, when I fixed a lot of computers? "My brother in Florida's a computer guy, and HE says that..." or "My son's in college, he's getting a CS degree, and he says..." or "My daughter's married to a guy that uses a computer at his work, and she says..."

Me, I always wanted to say, "Well, why have you brought it to me, if you know someone who knows so much?"

About as irritating as people wanting step by step for their specific drive, no?

Why don't you take a pen and piece of paper and write down complete step by step guide for such persons to fix their computers
Give them that guide for free
At the end all information should be shared right?
And it's not personal

PS: I'm really tired of such persons like you. Which come here and start bullshitting around about how the others supposed to behave. Not everybody like you, other people have their own truth

PPS: BTW if you share your personal info it stops being personal. Go ahead

[drc]

Ultimately it is not the data recovery professional's fault that data recovery related information is secret, it is the drive manufacturer's. They don't want you to know how to access or manipulate the non-user features of your hard drives, which is what has to happen to recover from failures. The more the information that is (probably illegally) reverse-engineered is spread around on the internet, the harder the manufacturers will make it to do. And then people who don't belong to companies that actually pay for the proprietary information will be even MORE out of luck in terms of anyone sharing info with them.

[bnice]

Ultimately it is not the data recovery professional's fault that data recovery related information is secret, it is the drive manufacturer's. They don't want you to know how to access or manipulate the non-user features of your hard drives, which is what has to happen to recover from failures. The more the information that is (probably illegally) reverse-engineered is spread around on the internet, the harder the manufacturers will make it to do. And then people who don't belong to companies that actually pay for the proprietary information will be even MORE out of luck in terms of anyone sharing info with them.

Maybe the best post yet, for why not to share information.


For those that still want to debate could do better looking at other sites first. Chinese and Russian sites open learning (a search engine and translator could be needed).

[BlackST]

Then go there. Simple.

[BGman]

I think the main purpose of this forum should be exchange of technical information between professionals and not fishing for customers like some do (BlackST, Doomer, laura, etc.). Of course non-professional members , only asking questions, should be redirected to DR firms.

[derp]

Hi BGman,

OK, so assume you right... Share what you know about Seagate 5600.7 smart repair solution.

[BlackST]

Instead of thinking about fishing, it is always possible to join the club of the professionals, where to trade and get all the info you need on an honest basis.

P.S. Again, no surprise about the fact that real discussions, info and so on are now behind many locked doors.

[maxreality]

I see data recovery similar to auto mechanics. There are good, bad, honest, and dishonest. I've worked for companies that admitted on the first day that data recovery is similar to smoke and mirrors. He showed me a video of the CEO of the company saying it. Very bizarre behavior. This company is also fairly large! I'm not going to mention names because that's unprofessional but it's that type of behavior that really makes me skeptical of the practice. I've seen three companies in the area that claim to have full clean room facilities. One of the companies had a hood which is more than the others could say. It just bothers me when companies false advertise and use scare tactics to corner their customers. I'm not going to say data recovery is easy and I'm not claiming to be an expert. IMO, it's something that people continuously learn and get better and faster as time goes on. But, when companies charge $750-$1000 for a formatted drive then I think there is something seriously wrong.

[itp]

Really funny to read this topic. One guy is blaming another for holding back information he himself might also have. And what's with those tricks? I heared somebody once say even a monkey can do data recovery on a physical level, and I think he's correct. The real work starts when you have to do the logical stuff: adapt firmwares, rebuild file-systems, make file repairs and so on. This is for me when the "real fun" starts, this is what for me brings in the money. And if I than have to charge a lower price than the amount of time spend on it, of course I have to even that out with charging more for a job that was "easy". Of course I will use every trick I know, and if somebody comes over I'll tell hem exactly what I do. Just like everybody else here. I just sometimes forget to tell HOW I do it.
Back to the example if the car-dealers: They will tell you exactly what they did with your car to make it run again, but without a bridge it will be a lot harder to exchange an exhaust or work on the undercarrage of a car. You are not only paying his hours, but also his tools.
Please let's just share what you want to share. Some people might only way what to do, others how to do it. But none will let another work in his clean-room or use his PC-3000 or so.

[Russwinters]

If you have a monkey that can solve the WD head alignment issues, and perform platter transplants on hard drives with spacer without causing shifts; I will buy two right now.



Regards,

[DMR]

If you have a monkey that can solve the WD head alignment issues, and perform platter transplants on hard drives with spacer without causing shifts; I will buy two right now.



Regards,

how many would be on back order by now??

[BlackST]

Since when do monkeys solve WD alignment problems ? Must inform mr. Darwin that HORSES already do it

[pcrecovery]

I disagree 10000% with what was said about physical data recovery. In fact, you can ask many instructors of forensics and data recovery, that when they give classrooms and teach student (with very easy drives...not even difficult models) usually they destroy and do NOT SUCCEED with even a simple head swap on EASY and SIMPLE drive models (single platter, 2 head for example). In fact, any experienced person probably knows that nearly all fail first 5 or 6 times on easiest cases....WITH hand being held and guided and instructed. So, in ideal environment, with teacher, good equipment, proper teaching, mentoring, etc most people cannot do it until many tries on easy drives. So, I think to say a monkey can do it is absurd. .

[scratchy]

It really annoys me when people hoard information like it's some special golden goose. With data recovery, it's not just knowledge people pay for, but the expertise to properly use that knowledge. I think the people that are worried about their 'tricks' getting out our the ones who probably have no expertise anyway; take away their PC3000 and where will they be?

If you want to know the 'tricks' why ask us? there is a much simpler way - phone up the manufacturer's tech support, they will tell you everything YOU need to know.

Us? We are a strange bunch, we do it the hard way.

[lcoughey]

Tips for DIY:

1. Always freeze the drive for 24 hours prior to powering it on
2. When powering on, give a few taps with your hammer
3. Before trying to recover the files, run SpinRite or HDDRegenerator
4. If the drive detects, boot into Windows, run a data recovery program and recover the data to the drive's root folder
5. If the original problem is with missing data, but the drive still boots into windows, install various data recovery programs and recover the data directly back to the same drive
6. If in doubt, open the drive and replace those silver plates with plates from a working drive.

For those who aren't sure...this is my sarcastic post of the day.

[guru]

I use an old record player with a super sharp stylus