Soft Center vs VNR tool
November 12th, 2014, 13:43
I am planning to add one more flash drive recovery tool in order to increase my success rate. I have been reading a lot about cases which PC3000 failed to recover but were recovered by Soft Center tool.
My question: how is VNR compared to Soft Center ?
My question: how is VNR compared to Soft Center ?
Re: Soft Center vs VNR tool
November 12th, 2014, 17:22
Hi Matiw,
before you start comparing, you have to identify a couple of points.
1) VNR is very new. The dev phase before release was probably the largest I have seen for a product before initial release. It was extremely polished and feature rich at release date compared to products that start of small and progress adding features with each release. RuSolut are actively working on the tool and focus is different to FE in that Soft Center are working on solutions to each individual device. it is a slight difference in focus, but important.
2) the developers of each tool have the same ultimate goal - recover from flash memory. But one very important point is that Flash Extractor is NOT a research tool. if I understand Sergey correctly, the idea of Flash Extractor is that Soft center continue to develop this tool as their own in-house software they use to recover flash, and instead of using the effort for themselves only, they have made the tool useful for other people as well. they have some functions to try and figure out flash with different wear levelling structures, but if you come up against one that is different than previously figured out devices.. the normal solution is upload your dumps and if easy enough to figure out, they will provide you with a solution. Some power users can figure their own out, but ones such as "SD_20" need parts of block or image cut out and can be quite tricky. It is also possible your device is going to be too hard and you get a no solution answer.
VNR is designed to give end users research capability, and one very powerful feature is the bitmap viewing. you can see very clearly page, block, plane structures. One thing that sets the VNR tool apart from others is the ease at which you can cut out bad columns. a large proportion of new flash devices use triple address flash, and these have a "plist" type file where bad columns are recorded (see the ruSolut page for details). there is no capability in Flash Extractor to cut bad columns(called bad bytes in soft centre language).
VNR has a few Tech Partners that help crowd source new chip parameters, XOR scrambling patterns and they are actively cracking new ECC's. while this isn't a feature of the tool per se, it does add to the development capability.
I must say I am not familiar with PC3K so cant comment on how their dev is going for new devices.
3) The actual results of how many cases you solve with each tool is going to be hard to compare. Soft Center is easy to see as you just look at the Library. Stats for VNR don't exist yet. I believe ACE have locked up their forum, so might not be able to compare at all.
4) You get many adapters with the VNR Kit, but need to produce your own or buy separate for FE.
5) VNR has capabilities to adjust voltage supplied to the chip. This is important to read new TLC chips where you can get very different results using higher or more commonly lower voltages. FE you need to add a variable power source to do this.
I have driven a few thousand KM this week, so maybe not a complete answer. maybe someone else can fill in anything they feel relevant..
before you start comparing, you have to identify a couple of points.
1) VNR is very new. The dev phase before release was probably the largest I have seen for a product before initial release. It was extremely polished and feature rich at release date compared to products that start of small and progress adding features with each release. RuSolut are actively working on the tool and focus is different to FE in that Soft Center are working on solutions to each individual device. it is a slight difference in focus, but important.
2) the developers of each tool have the same ultimate goal - recover from flash memory. But one very important point is that Flash Extractor is NOT a research tool. if I understand Sergey correctly, the idea of Flash Extractor is that Soft center continue to develop this tool as their own in-house software they use to recover flash, and instead of using the effort for themselves only, they have made the tool useful for other people as well. they have some functions to try and figure out flash with different wear levelling structures, but if you come up against one that is different than previously figured out devices.. the normal solution is upload your dumps and if easy enough to figure out, they will provide you with a solution. Some power users can figure their own out, but ones such as "SD_20" need parts of block or image cut out and can be quite tricky. It is also possible your device is going to be too hard and you get a no solution answer.
VNR is designed to give end users research capability, and one very powerful feature is the bitmap viewing. you can see very clearly page, block, plane structures. One thing that sets the VNR tool apart from others is the ease at which you can cut out bad columns. a large proportion of new flash devices use triple address flash, and these have a "plist" type file where bad columns are recorded (see the ruSolut page for details). there is no capability in Flash Extractor to cut bad columns(called bad bytes in soft centre language).
VNR has a few Tech Partners that help crowd source new chip parameters, XOR scrambling patterns and they are actively cracking new ECC's. while this isn't a feature of the tool per se, it does add to the development capability.
I must say I am not familiar with PC3K so cant comment on how their dev is going for new devices.
3) The actual results of how many cases you solve with each tool is going to be hard to compare. Soft Center is easy to see as you just look at the Library. Stats for VNR don't exist yet. I believe ACE have locked up their forum, so might not be able to compare at all.
4) You get many adapters with the VNR Kit, but need to produce your own or buy separate for FE.
5) VNR has capabilities to adjust voltage supplied to the chip. This is important to read new TLC chips where you can get very different results using higher or more commonly lower voltages. FE you need to add a variable power source to do this.
I have driven a few thousand KM this week, so maybe not a complete answer. maybe someone else can fill in anything they feel relevant..
Re: Soft Center vs VNR tool
November 13th, 2014, 8:53
Very informative. Thank you very much HaQue.
HaQue wrote:Hi Matiw,
before you start comparing, you have to identify a couple of points.
1) VNR is very new. The dev phase before release was probably the largest I have seen for a product before initial release. It was extremely polished and feature rich at release date compared to products that start of small and progress adding features with each release. RuSolut are actively working on the tool and focus is different to FE in that Soft Center are working on solutions to each irelevant..
.
.
.
Re: Soft Center vs VNR tool
November 13th, 2014, 10:15
I have SC FE and PC3K Flash (and SD FD, if that is worth mentioning). Here are my thoughts:
SD FD - great tool to have if you want to say you have flash recovery resources in-house, but don't actually care to have any successful recoveries. No updates, support or reasonable shared library access.
SC FE - works great if your case is already in their database. We don't use it much as the cost for the updates is too high for what is offered. The updates are minimal and support requires sending client data to Russia.
PC3K Flash - I have had most of my success with this tool. It helps that ACE tech support will remote in and assist, when the need arises...they are also very helpful in explaining what they did to help, if you ask. Updates are less than half of SC, support is better and they have an open online solutions centre that is accessible, even if your support license expires.
VNR - Definitely the new kid on the block. But, these guys know flash inside and out. They not only are trying to make flash recoveries plug and play for the novice, but they want the experts to have the tools necessary to figure out the complex cases on their own. I don't own this tool yet, but it is on my radar and will be added to my toolbox as soon as the funds can be made available.
If I were starting from scratch, I would likely still get the PC3K Flash first, just because I already have other Ace equipment and there is some familiarity with the interface. But, the second tool would be VNR, for sure.
Well, there is my 2 cents worth.
SD FD - great tool to have if you want to say you have flash recovery resources in-house, but don't actually care to have any successful recoveries. No updates, support or reasonable shared library access.
SC FE - works great if your case is already in their database. We don't use it much as the cost for the updates is too high for what is offered. The updates are minimal and support requires sending client data to Russia.
PC3K Flash - I have had most of my success with this tool. It helps that ACE tech support will remote in and assist, when the need arises...they are also very helpful in explaining what they did to help, if you ask. Updates are less than half of SC, support is better and they have an open online solutions centre that is accessible, even if your support license expires.
VNR - Definitely the new kid on the block. But, these guys know flash inside and out. They not only are trying to make flash recoveries plug and play for the novice, but they want the experts to have the tools necessary to figure out the complex cases on their own. I don't own this tool yet, but it is on my radar and will be added to my toolbox as soon as the funds can be made available.
If I were starting from scratch, I would likely still get the PC3K Flash first, just because I already have other Ace equipment and there is some familiarity with the interface. But, the second tool would be VNR, for sure.
Well, there is my 2 cents worth.
Re: Soft Center vs VNR tool
November 14th, 2014, 9:45
HaQue, regarding your first point; FE is targeted to specific chips while VNR is not. Is that correct? If a specific chip is not available in FE-library then there are three options (AFAICT):
1) you're screwed
2) wait till someone makes a lib of the chip
3) make your own lib
How does VNR compare to this? Library-driven or brute-force for (un)known chips?
I'm still on the run and haven't been able to dig-in the VNR yet, but I'm considering one of these tools for the next workshop-upgrade. VNR is about 10x priced than FE though, which has also be considered since I'm still a start-up.
1) you're screwed
2) wait till someone makes a lib of the chip
3) make your own lib
How does VNR compare to this? Library-driven or brute-force for (un)known chips?
I'm still on the run and haven't been able to dig-in the VNR yet, but I'm considering one of these tools for the next workshop-upgrade. VNR is about 10x priced than FE though, which has also be considered since I'm still a start-up.
Re: Soft Center vs VNR tool
November 14th, 2014, 10:42
I've had SC for a few years and may have broken even with successful cases, by now. PC3K Flash paid for itself within a few months. I imagine that VNR will have a fairly fast payback, assuming that you have a significant amount of projects coming through your doors.
Re: Soft Center vs VNR tool
November 14th, 2014, 11:11
To be fair, FE is not targeted.. effort is given to all cases. But the developer openly says that preference will be given to easy cases, and harder cases will be worked on where possible. some cases it is stated that there is no solution. This is a good way to get the most cases done possible..
You have to remember that flash vendors do not give out any info on their schemes. It must be reverse engineered. The only way new ECC/XOR/Bad column/page structs/etc etc schemes are worked out is from prior experience and working from there to figure out the new scheme. There are some that none of us have yet worked out.
Don't get NAND and controller chips mixed up and don't assume that if it is xxx controller then it will be xxx scheme.
If it isn't available in the FE library, you can upload the dumps to SC (free support) and quite often you will get a solution. There is no telling which cases will be solved, bit errors, bad dumps can play a part.
I am not sure I like to categorise any tool into "library driven" or "brute force".
VNR is research based I guess and with Tech Partners around the world helping out finding new XORs, plus the access to a huge pool of research drives, there is a great driving force to support more and more. plus the developers of VNR are not new to flash by any means.
If I had to make one recommendation, it would be to start learning about flash.. Pages, Crystals, Planes, CE, blocks, ECC, FAT tables, Files etc.
You have to remember that flash vendors do not give out any info on their schemes. It must be reverse engineered. The only way new ECC/XOR/Bad column/page structs/etc etc schemes are worked out is from prior experience and working from there to figure out the new scheme. There are some that none of us have yet worked out.
Don't get NAND and controller chips mixed up and don't assume that if it is xxx controller then it will be xxx scheme.
If it isn't available in the FE library, you can upload the dumps to SC (free support) and quite often you will get a solution. There is no telling which cases will be solved, bit errors, bad dumps can play a part.
I am not sure I like to categorise any tool into "library driven" or "brute force".
VNR is research based I guess and with Tech Partners around the world helping out finding new XORs, plus the access to a huge pool of research drives, there is a great driving force to support more and more. plus the developers of VNR are not new to flash by any means.
If I had to make one recommendation, it would be to start learning about flash.. Pages, Crystals, Planes, CE, blocks, ECC, FAT tables, Files etc.
Re: Soft Center vs VNR tool
November 24th, 2014, 11:35
how about the number of solutions already available in pc3k flash and VNR. Will be buying one of these two in the next few weeks but trying to decide which to go for. VNR are new so im guessing there arent a huge number in their database yet?
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