Verbatim USB 3.0 external 2 TB HD with Samsung F4EG HD204UI

[fzabkar]

When HDDScan is identifying the drive and its firmware does it sent the IDENTIFY DEVICE commands?

It must do. AFAIK, there is no other ATA command that can retrieve such information.

The ATA command set and Identify Device data are documented in sections 7 and 7.16.7 of the ATA standard.

Working Draft AT Attachment 8 - ATA/ATAPI Command Set (ATA8-ACS):
http://www.t13.org/documents/UploadedDo ... A8-ACS.pdf

[dfr]

When HDDScan is identifying the drive and its firmware does it sent the IDENTIFY DEVICE commands?

It must do. AFAIK, there is no other ATA command that can retrieve such information.

The ATA command set and Identify Device data are documented in sections 7 and 7.16.7 of the ATA standard.

Working Draft AT Attachment 8 - ATA/ATAPI Command Set (ATA8-ACS):
http://www.t13.org/documents/UploadedDo ... A8-ACS.pdf

Well, then it seems that I risk loosing data anytime I run HDDScan or any other similar software, which test HDDs.
But since I do not copy anything to that external drive at the same time when I run HDDScan can I assume that it is not writing anything, and hence likelihood of the problem to appear is negligible?

[fzabkar]

Here is the tail end of LBN 0 for PHYSICALDRIVE1:

Code:

0x01b0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 b0 4c 88 f1 00 00 00 20
0x01c0 21 00 07 fe ff ff 00 08 00 00 00 00 00 80 00 fe
0x01d0 ff ff 07 fe ff ff 00 08 00 80 00 70 e0 68 00 00
0x01e0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
0x01f0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 55 aa

If you temporarily change both instances of "07" to "d7", and then eject and reconnect your USB drive, you should find that both partitions will now be invisible to Windows. This should render it safe to run HDDScan on your drive. To return the drive to normal use, change both bytes back to 07. These two bytes are the partition type IDs for each of your two primary partitions.

You can use HxD to make the changes.

[fzabkar]

Then why this guy:
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/jimmymay/archiv ... plate.aspx
was writing about aligning HDs even before Advanced Format disks appeared?

He is talking about aligning the OS clusters to the stripe size in RAIDs. For JBODs it wouldn't matter.

Thanks for that link, BTW.

[Vulcan]

Well, then it seems that I risk loosing data anytime I run HDDScan

Perhaps so, but not definitely - remember that SATA NCQ Writes must be used, for ATA Identify Device to be able to trigger the drive f/w bug, and we don't know if NCQ is being used by that specific USB enclosure.

There is also a way in which HDDScan might not be causing the ATA Identify Device command to be sent (instead using the cached result of when Windows got that information from the drive when it was plugged-in), but that would require more reverse engineering (e.g. a USB or SATA trace, as I mentioned before), to see what is really happening.

So IMHO there is insufficient information for the answer to be "clear cut" at the moment that there is definitely a risk. But of course, if you want to eliminate any possibility of triggering that bug then, yes, avoid any disk utilities like that or prevent active I/O at the same time as running such a utility (e.g. by using the technique which fzabkar has kindly explained for Windows systems). As I said in my previous comments:

Therefore until you have updated the f/w in that drive [...] I would not use any utilities to get the SMART status of that drive (or any other unusual drive monitoring utilities), when there is any possibility of I/O in progress.

[dfr]

Any suggestions which checksum software for windows xp I could use to automatically compare the files (in many different directories) and check if the files I copied to Verbatim are still the same as originals? That way I hope I would know if that bug affected them or not.

[dfr]

I received replies from Australian and European Verbatim. What do you think about them?

=================================================================
Sorry for the delayed response. Our office here in Victoria had been affected by floods over the weekend and we've been busy cleaning up the office.

I have read through your query. You have made some valid points and here are a couple answers to help you clarify your situation.

The problem you described with the firmware update only affects NCQ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCQ) which is applicable using a SATA or eSATA connection. It is not used when connected via a USB enclosure and therefore no risk of data loss is present.

We cannot provide testing softwares for legal reasons. If there is a problem with your drive, you will have to send it in to us where we complete testing in our lab. Using a drive via USB interface does not allow all the access that a SATA connection would allow with softwares such as "ESTOOL v 3.01". This is a constraint that all external USB drives will have.

Verbatim warranty doesn't cover data loss. You may read our policy on our website here: http://www.verbatim.com.au/en_AU/suppor ... e/view/451

All our drives are partitioned and aligned correctly from the factory. The drives are formatted as FAT32 because this is the most compatible format. We do not provide additional formatting software.

Regarding the warranty issue, the product sold in the US is not the same as ours. We sell the same product as they do in Europe and offer the same warranty as them - 2 years. This warranty time limit is given to us from our manufacturers.

I hope this has clarified your situation.

------------------
Thank you for your comments. This message has been passed onto our product managers and will be looked upon.

Unfortunately, we are unable to provide the service and support that you've requested. Our current products and services have been addressed by our product managers to determine the best possible way to provide the best service for our customers.

There are countless reasons why we have restrictions to our warranty policies. If any of them are to be rid, there most certainly will be loopholes that certain customers may take advantage of, thereby possibly causing further issues that may hinder us from providing the best customer service response we can.

If you're unhappy with our product, you may return it for a refund and purchase a separate product that may include the requested softwares and doesn't void the warranty if opened.

Regarding the differences between the US product and the warranty questions, we don't have details of their specific differences, but we only offer for sale the product that carries the 2 year warranty - as detailed by our manufacturers.
===============================================================

Dear Customer,

Thank you for this e-mail. Your reference number is **********.
Please quote this reference on all future correspondence with us.

Please note that we are technical support/repair centre and we do provide technical support, do the troubleshooting with the customers and test non working devices here.

There can be any of the following hard disks inside Verbatim enclosure:
Hitachi, Seagate, Samsung, Toshiba, WD.

Please provide us with the following information:
- the model no. of the drive, located at the back of the drive and starting with 475xx/476xx/53xxx
- its serial number, located on the same label as the model no.
- its date and place of purchase/a copy of proof of purchase
- the version of operating system you are using
- a detailed description of the fault
- any error message
- if the drive works with a different connection cable
- if the drive works on a different PC
- if the drive works with any of the USB port
- if the light is on

Verbatim is not responsible for loss of data
and we do not provide Data Recovery service.

Please note that if they have to open the drive physically, its warranty will be cancelled.

The Verbatim external hard drives are pre-formatted to FAT32.
Each customer can re-format the hard drive.


Best Regards,
Verbatim Euro Support
Dutec Limited
Company Registered in Ireland No: 307480

------------------------------------------
Dear Customer,

Please provide us with the following information:
- a screen shots of any error message
- if the external hard drive works with your computer
- if the external hard drive works with a different computer


Best Regards,
Verbatim Euro Support
Dutec Limited
Company Registered in Ireland No: 307480
=======================================================

I have an impression that the European support did not read carefully my message at all.

[fzabkar]

I received replies from Australian and European Verbatim. What do you think about them?

The Aussie guy cares about your concerns, whereas the Euro guy just wants to close out the support call.

The bottom line is that Vulcan's analysis appears to be vindicated, ie that NCQ is not supported via USB. That said, if your drive has an eSATA port, would it be possible to update its firmware via that route?

[dfr]

I received replies from Australian and European Verbatim. What do you think about them?

The Aussie guy cares about your concerns, whereas the Euro guy just wants to close out the support call.

The bottom line is that Vulcan's analysis appears to be vindicated, ie that NCQ is not supported via USB. That said, if your drive has an eSATA port, would it be possible to update its firmware via that route?

This Verbatim enclosure has only USB 3.0 port.

Is NCQ support necessary for the bug to work or just sending ATA IDENTIFY DEVICE command:
http://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/smartm ... GBadBlocks
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1566067

[fzabkar]

My understanding is that, in order for the bug to appear, the ATA Identify Device command must be sent while a write command is in progress. This is only possible if NCQ is enabled. Hence you should be OK with smartmontools or HDDScan, etc.

[Doomer]

When HDDScan is identifying the drive and its firmware does it sent the IDENTIFY DEVICE commands? Because it is identifying that without using SMART option. It does it by default.

It does if it could. Not all USB chips allow sending this command

[dfr]

When HDDScan is identifying the drive and its firmware does it sent the IDENTIFY DEVICE commands? Because it is identifying that without using SMART option. It does it by default.

It does if it could. Not all USB chips allow sending this command

As you can see on the screenshot it can in case of this Verbatim drive. So does it mean that HDDScan can provoke appearing of the bug, and data loss is possible in this case? SN was removed from the screenshot.

Attachments

[Doomer]

So does it mean that HDDScan can provoke appearing of the bug, and data loss is possible in this case?

I have no idea and frankly I want to keep it this way

HDDScan sends command to a Microsoft (or any other) driver and driver sends it to USB chip. USB chip may or may not send it to actual hard drive and it depends on USB chip's microcode
Any program could do that and there is nothing special about it

From my understanding NCQ will work only with Native SATA commands (so you need AHCI SATA controller) and USB chips do not support Native SATA commands

[dfr]

I tested 5 hard drives using different tests (mainly surface access times tests):

1. Samsung HD204UI in Verbatim 2 TB 3.0 USB enclosure.
2. Samsung SP1614N
3. WDC WD6400AAKS
4. WDC WD1600BEVS
5. Seagate ST320410A

The tests results are in 149 files of the screenshots of these tests, available to download in this thread:
surface-test-hdds-t18575.html

1. Generally Samsung drives (even the new 2TB Samsung HD204UI) seem to have considerably poorer quality of the surface comparing to the 3 years old (or so) Western Digital WDC WD6400AAKS.

2. I would like to see similar tests, in particular of other brands and models of 2 TB hard drives. Please upload your tests results in that thread (click the link above).

3. I wonder why in some hard drives slower access times can bee seen aligning in some diagonal patterns (in HD204UI) and why in some other drives (in WDC WD1600BEVS) a checkered pattern appears (only from the second half of the scan) which "shape" changes regularly depending on the part of the disk surface scanned, while in some other drives no such regular patterns are present?

4. Why is there such a difference in SMART status health notification between various software for Samsung SP1614N (it is red for most of the tests in HDD Health and everything OK in HD Tune)? There is also a significant difference in MHDD scan result and HDDScan result for SP1614N.

5. BTW, it took ca. 31 h to test Samsung HD204UI in Verbatim 2 TB 3.0 USB enclosure on USB 2.0 port.

[dfr]

Samsung's explanation why they did not change firmware number.

From another forum:

"Here is the reason from the Samsung HDD department for the firmware number staying the same:

I just wanted to let you know the firmware version will not change after flashing. The version did not change because it takes a long time to get customers approval for change notices. It would have taken over a month before we could have released the fix.

Please make sure that for each drive the flashing process is successful…

We have already implemented the fix to our production. So drives available on the market in 2 months time will have the fix applied. To be sure check the manufacturing date on the drives, January 2011 would be safer…"

http://lime-technology.com/forum/index. ... 9#msg90249

-----------

When I asked them why their patch tool is not changing the firmware number and how can one check if the patch was successfully applied their response was evasive to say the least:

"Even though there is no indication of the change in the patch please rest assure that the patch has been applied to the drive. If you continue patching it, it will continue to do so.

We suggest that you contact Samsung 1-800-726-7864 for further assistance.

Thank You for choosing Samsung."
==========

Some more questions to Samsung and their answers:

1. "What is the difference between Samsung F4EG HD204UI/Z4 and F4EG HD204UI/JP1 hard drives models? What the Z4 and JP1 in the model numbers stand for?"

Reply:

"Dear Customer,

The difference between the two drives is that the JP1 is for Japan models. The Z4 models are everywhere else in the world.

Thank You for choosing Samsung."

2. "What is the difference between Samsung F4EG HD204UI/Z4 and F4EG HD204UI hard drives models? What the Z4 in the model number stands for?"

Reply:

"Dear Customer,

All model HD204UI in any series are thesame.

Thank you for choosing Samsung."

Go figure...

[dfr]

One more of Samsung replies to some other persons query:

http://lime-technology.com/forum/index. ... #msg104884

"Their support is not to helpful

Sent them the following question:
"By mistake i have installed firmware for HD204UI/JP (http://www.samsung.com/global/business/ ... msg_id=387) on my HD204UI.

Will this cause any problem for my drives (i have 4 and all were updated) as i now have the wrong firmware?"

Got the following response:
"Dear Customer,

The site that you have download is only a patch tool to resolve data loss. It will not affect your unit and the firmware.

Thank you for choosing Samsung."


Then they have a link for adding more information/questions to the ticket and this link doesn't work."

[dfr]

Anoter reply from Verbatim:

"Dear Customer,

We do not have any such tool you are asking for therefore we are not able to help you with your query.

We are very sorry the device does not meet your requirements.

We advise you to contact the reseller and ask for a replacement device or the refund.

Best Regards,
Verbatim Euro Support
Dutec Limited
Company Registered in Ireland No: 307480"

[dfr]

Todays e-mail from Verbatim:

"Dear Customer,

Thank you for your e-mail.

We have enquired with Verbatim and have received no information
corroborating these potential issues.
Data loss is always a potential risk with any hard disks
and it is therefore highly recommended to back up your important data.

Best Regards,
Verbatim Euro Support
Dutec Limited
Company Registered in Ireland No: 307480"

[dfr]

From another forum:

"Have Samsung truly fixed SMART or have they implemented some kludge to work around the problem?

I have a pair of these HD204UI disks, with the 'fixed' firmware, manufacture date March 2011. Although I am not seeing data corruption (and I have done a lot of copying them full and md5 checksumming before even considering using them) they both keep incrementing their ATA error count in the SMART log with an "abort" error. I can see it in dmesg too. It appears they do this when SMART is queried whilst they are in low-power mode, at which point the SATA controller performs a reset and they continue working. If I am streaming video files from them there will be a delay whilst this happens. All of actual the SMART counters (error rates, reallocated sectors etc.) are healthy.

If I send hdparm commands after bootup (Ubuntu 10.04 seems to be somewhat broken at setting /etc/hdparm.conf itself) the ATA errors cease. If I reboot and forget to set it, they increase again, either gradually throughout the day (background SMART polling?) or every time I manually read the SMART data.

Nothing special about the disk controller, nVidia MCP51 with SWNCQ and RAID disabled. And works perfectly with my various Hitachi and WD disks."

http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/vi ... 21#p538921