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 Post subject: Would it be legal to have a list of customers who never pay?
PostPosted: January 7th, 2009, 20:53 
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Location: In your hard drive.
Would it be legal to have a list of customers whom never had the intention of paying? We get several customers a year that just disappear even before hearing the recovery price. It sure would save a lot of people's time and money if you knew before hand if the customer has a record of not paying or completely disappearing. Any comments?

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 Post subject: Re: Would it be legal to have a list of customers who never pay?
PostPosted: January 7th, 2009, 22:18 
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Joined: September 29th, 2005, 12:02
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Location: Chicago
if you are planning to share it - it's defenitely illegal

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 Post subject: Re: Would it be legal to have a list of customers who never pay?
PostPosted: January 7th, 2009, 23:06 
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It’s just something I thought of off the top of my head. Maybe an ongoing excel file that anyone with the password can add a name and brief explanation. It wouldn’t contain any personal information such as address or email. I know there are certain people out there that are disgruntled with the data recovery industry and would love to waste our time and money. It might tip off the potential recovery company that a customer is dishonest.

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 Post subject: Re: Would it be legal to have a list of customers who never pay?
PostPosted: January 7th, 2009, 23:15 
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Joined: August 25th, 2007, 1:24
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Location: Western Australia, Australia
I had a customer like this who sent me 3 hard disks in a 1 week period, Never approved any quotes and never answered his phone or emails. ...He opened his own data recovery company about 6 months later.

I suspect he wanted to learn from me, see how we deal with customers - steal templates from quotes emails and information given on the problem to use in his own business. Beware of people who say they need their data back but can't tell you what folders are important. My experience has shown me that serious customers always know the critical folders (e.g My Documents).


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 Post subject: Re: Would it be legal to have a list of customers who never pay?
PostPosted: January 7th, 2009, 23:21 
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Joined: August 19th, 2007, 17:30
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Location: In your hard drive.
That’s a great example. If that persons name was on a secret list, only available to data recovery people, it would tip off any other companies.

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 Post subject: Re: Would it be legal to have a list of customers who never pay?
PostPosted: January 7th, 2009, 23:43 
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Joined: September 29th, 2005, 12:02
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first just keep in mind by law it might be called "blackmailing" or "calumny"
and second w/o personal info your list is useless. How many "John Smith"s could be there :)

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 Post subject: Re: Would it be legal to have a list of customers who never pay?
PostPosted: January 8th, 2009, 2:50 
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Joined: April 6th, 2008, 1:10
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Just start putting names and on pizza boxes like they do for child support :roll:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,261051,00.html


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 Post subject: Re: Would it be legal to have a list of customers who never pay?
PostPosted: January 8th, 2009, 9:30 
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Joined: November 9th, 2006, 15:15
Posts: 2984
I think many people fail to pay for a number of reasons, only a small percentage are likely to do it intentionally.

I remember a job I did around a year ago, a client sent in a damaged hard drive which contained the only pictures of her deceased parents. Client had no money, but wanted to verify data was still available so she could save up to pay. In this instance she had no money, but wanted to ensure valuable data was still recoverable for when she saved enough for it.

As it turns out this job was given at a very good discount, and client later decided to send media back to me and pay for recovery.

It would not be right to stereotype all customers the same way.

I do agree though that there are way to many instances where customers do not pay for a service they initially approved, and after work has been done.


@Jerrykid: That is a funny article! I guess I better start paying all my bills!! :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Would it be legal to have a list of customers who never pay?
PostPosted: January 8th, 2009, 11:07 
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Joined: January 15th, 2008, 11:06
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Location: Providence, RI. Boston, MA USA
You can not avoid such customers and will have a few that will fail, refuse to pay for services.
This is a part of the business. Either we eat those losses and continue working or we can spend a lot of time dealing with those problems instead of working.

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 Post subject: Re: Would it be legal to have a list of customers who never pay?
PostPosted: January 8th, 2009, 16:01 
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Joined: March 13th, 2005, 12:33
Posts: 872
Location: Dublin
Modify your business practices and procedures so that you do not carry out excessive work without some form of pre-payment or authorisation/purchase order. This way, even if they decide not to proceed, you haven't wasted a lot of time and you can focus your efforts on the jobs that you know will make you money. Analyse the drive and give the customer a written quotation, don't spend any more time until they come back to you.

Obviously there are cases where customers cannot afford to pay immediately but these are the exception rather than the rule and you can judge on a per-case basis.

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 Post subject: Re: Would it be legal to have a list of customers who never pay?
PostPosted: January 22nd, 2009, 3:30 
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Joined: April 4th, 2008, 1:46
Posts: 161
Location: Michigan, USA
The credit bureaus do this all the time. This person pays late, that person carries a bad debt to income ratio...

Customer blacklists are not illegal in the United States at least, but you can't distribute them. You may make them available to anyone who wants them that asks for them. You may make it public that you have or produce this list, but you must not provide it until requested. Something as simple as a web page explaining the list's purpose with a link at the bottom "Click here to view list of idiots" or something of that nature is all that it takes over here to be totally legal.


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 Post subject: Re: Would it be legal to have a list of customers who never pay?
PostPosted: January 22nd, 2009, 5:06 
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Joined: May 5th, 2004, 20:06
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Location: England
thats just crazy... You would ALSO need to put a warning on your website to say you will share customer details with the general public.. LOL just your thought would make me keep well away from you.....


Lets be serious now....

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 Post subject: Re: Would it be legal to have a list of customers who never pay?
PostPosted: January 22nd, 2009, 23:38 
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Joined: April 4th, 2008, 1:46
Posts: 161
Location: Michigan, USA
Why? You don't have to give all the person's information, just for example "Richard Shine in Detroit with postal code 48220 failed to pay $450 for services". Does the credit card company tell you that they will share the fact that you are late? Not outright, it's buried in a very long service agreement. The company Choicepoint collects whatever kind of data you want. All data recovery services would have to do would be to send them this information, and they would keep it in its own repository like they do everything else. The nice thing there is that you can't get the list itself, but only check whether a name appears on it, add your own entries to it, and remove an entry that you entered. In that case, you would request from them the file on Mr. Shine, just like checking a credit file. If he has no file, or no negativity, conduct business normally. Depending on what's in his file, you might ask for a larger deposit amount, such as $500 credit card hold, with the charge to be posted when complete. He isn't charged the $500, it is only held, so if the charge comes to $50, that alone will post to his card and the hold would then be released on the $450 remaining. You could even just decide not to conduct business with him at all.

This is just a reversed version of one of the services of the Better Business Bureau, this one for business, not customer, protection.

Lots of businesses keep (and share) this kind of information, they just don't broadcast it to the world. Look for "Wall of shame" or similar things. More than a handful of businesses that my company services (IT, POS, etc.) actually puts returned checks up on the wall for all to see (mostly auto parts stores, machine shops, things like that).

If you're going to screw someone in a business deal, do you think that it's wrong for the person to nonmaliciously publicize it? I've dealt with people before who have no problem with a bill until it comes due, then they start questioning billable hours, what we installed ("why do we need a rack or cabinet to install all this into, why can't we stack it on the floor?") prices of equipment we sell as compared to the junk you would buy at Best Buy (why some routers cost $1500 and how they are different from the $39 one at the store). I've had to take these types of places to court on several occasions, sometimes costing me almost as much as the judgement amount (if you try to make it up by adding late charges, say $50 and then 10% per month, it is legal, but the judge will probably reduce them or remove them entirely).

Why should I take up ten hours of my time, as well as several hours of one or more of my technicians' time (which I will have to pay them for), in order to collect a bill? I can't charge the person I'm suing for that time wasted.

The bottom line, as far as I care, is that if someone wants to do business with you, they need to understand that they will have to pay your bill, not what they think is reasonable, not to stop paying on an office installation of 26 machines and two servers because one of their computers got a virus on it (had it happen to me) and you are charging them send someone out to remove it (had it happen to me). You have to protect your interests.

If you send me a piece of equipment for repair, and you don't pay me, I keep it. It's that simple. It's just like a car at a repair shop. Look up Mechanic's Lien if you want to see what I am talking about. Don't pay for a new accessory belt to be installed on your $50000 Mercedes? The shop can legally keep (and after 120 days, sell) your car and not give you a thing. If you take the car from their lot when they are closed, it's actually considered a felony (with the same penalties as theft of the same) in the U.S., since the car is legally considered at that point to be held in escrow, pending payment.

If it's something that has to be billed in segments, like an installation of a restaurant POS system (deposit, then amount upon completion), it's a little different. If they don't pay in their 15-30 days, what then? What then is that it gets expensive for you, as the company who isn't being paid.

Did you know there are actually companies that have an authentication service, where you install a utility onto the computer that will phone home periodically to check if they have been honoring a payment plan? You, as the installer, can update the status on their website. You enter a shutdown date, where the program will disable their computers (and encrypt the contents of the directories of your choice), generally a month or so after the due date on the last bill you sent them. Once the plan's completed, the program removes itself from their machinery. Sure, you can hire someone to come in and remove it, but it will probably cost them so much to do it, that it's easier for them to just pay you the bill. I wonder how many times the person who built that program had to get screwed in order to resort to coming up with that? You would, of course, have to write it into your services agreement as well. You would also have the flexibility to allow them to continue using everything, pending resolution of a money problem on their part. I really don't want to have to implement these sort of things, but I've had cases where I wished I did have this service.

Trust me, I do understand your point of view. I don't want my information shared, either, but if I broke an arrangement in an unfair manner (didn't immediately inform that I couldn't pay on time, or no longer needed the service, until completion), it would be deserved.


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 Post subject: Re: Would it be legal to have a list of customers who never pay?
PostPosted: January 23rd, 2009, 5:11 
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Joined: May 5th, 2004, 20:06
Posts: 2782
Location: England
I personaly hate it when the customer sends in a drive...You send them the file list and they say.. Oh my data must have been on my other HDD.. Or even they say.. No thanks there's nothing there I wanted..I was just checking!!!

grrrrrrrr it happens

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 Post subject: Re: Would it be legal to have a list of customers who never pay?
PostPosted: January 23rd, 2009, 9:46 
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Joined: November 9th, 2006, 15:15
Posts: 2984
It is an inconvenience, and a right pain in the a**e, but every customer has got the right to change their mind. If a quote is approved, work is done at customers approval, then customer changes his mind then this should be covered by contract with client, or terms and conditions, and maybe there is then the opportunity to proceed with legal action.

If a company does the work before customer approval, then that is the choice of the company, and not fault of customer if decide not to go ahead.

It is an inconvenience that can be avoided with the right contractual agreement, terms and conditions, and working practices.


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 Post subject: Re: Would it be legal to have a list of customers who never pay?
PostPosted: January 24th, 2009, 3:38 
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Joined: April 4th, 2008, 1:46
Posts: 161
Location: Michigan, USA
hddguy wrote:
It is an inconvenience, and a right pain in the a**e, but every customer has got the right to change their mind. If a quote is approved, work is done at customers approval, then customer changes his mind then this should be covered by contract with client, or terms and conditions, and maybe there is then the opportunity to proceed with legal action.

...


Yes, my problem is when they do approve then decide they don't want it after it's already done or installed or whatever. For example... I will proceed from the P.O.V. of a data recovery service.

If someone sends a hard disk, you evaluate it first. You then communicate your estimate to the customer. Upon customer approval, you order what is needed for the service. If they call you the next day, even before your hardware comes in and cancels the order, that is an annoyance, but not a serious matter. In this case, you can sell the donor drive to someone else.

If you give them the first estimate (and they approve it), you order hardware or engage in additional service only to discover that yet something else would be needed, and give them that revision to the estimate and they decline it, then you would have to have it spelled out in the contract, but likely it would end with a simple diagnostic cost (say $100) so at least you aren't out any money.

If they wait a three or four days after giving you the approval, by which point you are most likely almost done, and then tell you they changed their mind and don't want it, is an entirely different matter. In the second case, you are out money and have nothing to show for it but some drive parts that you may never use and likely cannot sell if it is already disassembled. In this second case, a cancellation fee would be in order, in an amount sufficient to cover the cost of the drive and your inconvenience ($200 say).

hddguy wrote:
...

If a company does the work before customer approval, then that is the choice of the company, and not fault of customer if decide not to go ahead.

...


Agreed. You do unapproved work and then the customer does not approve, it is your own dumb fault.

hddguy wrote:
...

It is an inconvenience that can be avoided with the right contractual agreement, terms and conditions, and working practices.


Definitely. If only customers respected contracts and service agreements. Customers do not take these things seriously and will reverse charge credit cards and the like. I've had cases of customers never communicating a complaint at all to me, only to be presented with a $5000 chargeback for three machines plus installation because they believed that they were lacking functionality that they thought was standard yet never asked for. The case that comes to mind is three computers that did not include Microsoft Office, the customer only insisted on having the "Windows 2000 system", and claimed that they had all the necessary software, not understanding that Office and Windows are separate products. They made no differentiation between Windows 2000 and Office 2000.

If only I had just to complain about the stupid customers. The ones that bother me are the ones like this who try to never be responsible for anything, including their own mistakes.


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