We got so much technical direction in this forum. And some of us are really a GURU. But more are freshmen who want to do the data recovery by themselves according to some guidance. But it’s obvious that we can’t finish the data recovery job just by only some scattered advice.

We know that whether the data can be recovery is depended on who do this job not the tools. The technician accumulates ample experience by finishing thousands of data recovery job. They can solve more complicated case. And make your data security. Keep your data from getting the damage caused by incorrect operation.

So maybe we should pay more attention to who is the specialist company, who can provide us with more perfect service, reasonable price and so on. Then send our data there.

This is not a SPAM. I just want to tell a truth data recovery is not as simple as what we thought. And I understand profoundly how important the data are.

@badboy, you went to the same conclusions a person with common sense should.
When someone places a good tech question, I know what he's doing and I reply accordingly, but when the posts come from, you said "freshmen" (I'll better say people with bad attitude, greedy, with no humbleness and possibly disturbing, the same people that probably want the knowledge spread for free, their problems solved for free but don't hesitate to defend with a knife in their teeth their income or revenue - our studies, development and efforts are just owed or simply s**t) I give up.
Always remember : data is crucial, when they have to pay a single dime it becomes suddenly not important and they spend nights posting in forums (if you wander around you'll see mountains of pathetic posts and more pathetic replies too) emuleing "the magic software that can give a kick in the ass to all those greedy DR technicians" losing time in experiments etc. trying to recover their valuable data for free. Away from all this !
Finally, I have proposal : a closed forum for strictly technical questions... for the elite only. Yes , the ivory tower. Why not ?

Regards.

I don't think you are right here.
People are always not universal as well as tool and learnings and the most important is the conditions of the drive.
Imaging, a man who is doing in this field for nearly 5or 6 years and he alway use the out of data tools and are conservative to the new technology. Even he is a professional to do data recovery, he always can't do nothing in many situation.
Here, I regards that whether the data can be recovered depends on, first the drive condition and the experience and the technology of the technicians as well as his learning skills and the tools he is using.
All of these are esstential.
Data recovery is really a complex and a mysterious field.

Your words are really good here.
But if a forum is closed to elites onely.The newbies will turn helpness.
And there will be no kind man here in this forum.

_________________
Professional is who always learning and sharing!

I don't think BlackST's view is selfish. we all know that the knowledge is Priceless Treasures.

of course i think BlackST also agree with share. he supplied so much kind advice. the sharing brings more prosperity.

finally i agree with chanson fully.

Data Recovery is a skill. Like any skill based professional experience is important (e.g Doctors). The more experience you have the more likely you will be able to know how to solve a problem.

In the field of computer forensics, there is an expression - Tool Tyke! This is a person who only knows how to run programs but does not know what they do, how they work and why they work. In data recovery - it's like having a license for data recovery program then going out and starting your own data recovery business cliaming to be able to fix all hard disk problems and offering a free quote to see if you can really do it or not.

This forum has it's place in the world, people are free to ask questions and 'hope' for help. You can never count on somebody solving your problem for you. But it's one of few places there are experts to help. We all need help sometimes - this is why we are all on this forum, to learn and to help others when we can.

In cases when i have asked for help and been given some suggestions - this has helped but i have often needed to spent many hours researching and experimenting hands-on myself to actually solve the problem. There is no such thing as a quick fix.

Data recovery is a business these days, like any skill which you can make a living from, you will find most members on this forum will be reluctant to give away their knowledge unless it's something which is commonly known or easily googled.

Personally, i find that people in general are stingy! They won't pay for something which the claim is worth thousands of dollars to them or cannot be replaced when their hard disk crashes. They expect you to recover their data for the same cost of a hard disk (e.g $100). To these people - i tell them to 'google' and find a solution - see how it easy it! Usuallly they come back 2-3 days later and begging me to recover the data and agree to pay us to do it.

I support sharing information but only to a limit. If we share everything we all know - in a few months time every local computer repair shop will be offering data recovery services offering a very poor quality of service and results as they will offer it at a very low cost and the rest of us data recovery professionals who depends on this business will suffer as our prices will seem high in comparision.

Its not a joke. If people everywhere treated each other as friends or even brothers, our buildings wouldnt be plane crashes, and peoples heads wouldnt be sawed off. Its clear I wish for the impossible, but at the least we can practice the friendlyness and good will so we wont be so quick to be mean and abusive.

And keep in mind that the dificulty in data recovery is only so because the makers make it difficult to recover. And if it werent for the hacker community finding the back doors, our choices would be even more limited. The more people behave secretly, the more complicated it gets for everybody. That is why I cruise thru forums to learn secrets. Its good to be smart so you dont end up paying and paying for a lot of useless mumbo jumbo from actors masqureading as "experts". In a few months, I will be in Florida repairing my friends boat. He has spent years and tons of money on repairmen that have done nothing but make things worse and unrelyable. So now I will clean the thing up for him so he can finally get some joy out of boat ownership. Its a drag that the repair world is such a racket, but the only way to beat it is to be a do-it-yourselfer, whenever you can.

Todays world is such a big world that you can find a nich and be successful at anything. But I dont desire honor or enemies. I am happy just who I am and appreciate covorting with smart, nice and friendly people like myself.

Oh I have to edit this. Dont be thinking I think of people here as actors. This is a forum where everybody contributes, fact or opinion, ameture or pro. So I judge nobody on their knowledge, but I lack patience for lack of friendlyness simply because abuse is useless when sharing knolwlege and ideas. Things are just more pleasant when everybody is friendly. Keep in mind, Chemical Ali in Iraq was a top chemical expert. But they executed him just the same. He wasnt a very friendly dude.

And Gandhi and JFK and Martin Luther King were friendly but they were shot. So what ?

There are some very good issues being discussed here.

I would like to see a separate, closed forum for pros, because the needs of a pro are very different than a newbie. For example, firmware issues and repair techniques mean nothing to someone without the tools and experience. Pros have already made huge investments in time and materials, and I think there would be more willingness to share among others who have paid their "dues."

Knowledge can be powerful and dangerous. I agree with rchadwick in that the right info in the wrong hands often spells disaster. Newbies -- by definition people without experience -- simply don't have the wisdom to know what the outcome of their efforts will be, i.e. that first efforts on mechanical repairs almost always fail.

As far as pricing and value is concerned, let me give an analogy. A couple of weeks ago I had a hernia repair as an outpatient in a local hospital. The surgery took about an hour. The incision was about 2 cm. The bill was over $10,000 USD.

Now I could have bought my own scalpels, mesh, disinfectant, etc. and attempted the same thing myself, after watching videos and asking questions on forums. But I am still alive, only a little poorer . . . . and my hernia is repaired.

Jon

_________________
http://www.datasaversllc.com

True, let's concentrate on HDDs . In private, maybe . Great invention, the PMs. and the IMs. Usually a genius at work doesn't show off so much... take it easy.
(sorry for being sometimes too short but I reply from the cell phone - at the beach at present and it's like writing text messages)

What can you say when even the professionals cant seem to actually read the posts. Are we still to call them professionals? One of the differences between great and not so great businesses is the ability of the proprietors to read and listen so they can understand and respond appropriately. Although I have not said my age, I would think its clear that I am far beyond simply being a kid. I wish I was a kid again, but you guys are sparing with a 50yo degreed engineer. I have been around the block many times and have seen and done lots. So, I am at an age where I am much less selfish with modest needs, and more in the giving back mode. But does knowing that somehow change the words I use in my technical explanations? I just looked and it doesnt. If a five year old wrote it, it is still everybit as correct as if the 100yo Hdguru himself wrote it.

So I would suggest you quit making meaningless personal attacks and figure out some constructive way to respond to posts. That in itself will help to keep the technical discussions on track.

As for seperate boards just for pro's, the "pro's" as they call themselves, used to be newbies. What is the dividing line where a newbie becomes a pro? Who is the person to judge this line and anoint the aged newbie a pro? And will all the "pro's" in the ranks welcome the assended newbie with open arms and unwavering respect? You guys talk like you have God complexes, and I know for a fact your snit stinks just as bad as mine. So get used to me, Im not going anywhere. I feel so loved, and I have more tips and tricks I can share as I get some free time. Its the least I can do to give back for all that I got.

Hah, the hernia example. I know a friend. She is in a lot of trouble. She had the professionals fix her hernia. They used a faulty mesh that broke loose and absessed. After several more surgeries, they still havnt gotten it all out. She is scared for her life with infection and everybody is praying she survives all this. So its clear that some "pro's" are not as good as other "pro's" and she may have faired better if she did it herself.

STTS,

You make a very valid point about how difficult it would be to determine who is a newbie vs. a pro. Indeed, we were all once (and maybe still are) newbies.

I don't have a God complex. I am learning every day and I am the last to claim that I have the answers. But my needs are different than the poor fellow who is trying to get his data back from his personal drive, and I don't have much in common (any more) with that situation. I'm simply proposing a more specialized forum for tougher cases, if you will.

I claim I don't have a God complex, and you may or may not agree. But you seem to have a lot of anger, which you dispense like a puppy marking his territory . . . Not unusual for the over-50 crowd, to which I also belong . . .

Cheers,

Jon

_________________
http://www.datasaversllc.com

10,000 US $... great analogy. Anyway, STTS, the personal attacks started right from you, we don't have any God complex, etc. The discussion(s) have gone beyond any reasonable boundary. It's YOU only that have gone systemathically OFF-TOPIC talking about boat repair, kit cars, what you do, your wealth, playing domino with drives, neighbours, personal opinion and so on. For much less, in other forum(s) a ban should have been waived at 2nd or 3rd post, so this is democracy.
I don't want to fall into the same off-topic issue so I have to stop too. And the idea of a closed forum for the pros only is uprising, so there's the need for it.
Yes, I was a newbie and also I went to the university. SO many of us. No longer teenagers, no longer newbies, so maybe some other place suit different needs better. What's bad in it ? As a consequence, some places are maybe not open to everyone. So what? A closed forum / community is a simple way to discuss in peace , peer-to-peer.
You said you received many PMs from other people that embrace your point of view ? Good. Register a domain, buy... ooooops, I mentioned Kryptonite to Superman.... download a free bulletin system and open your own forum for newbies only where you can make sticky posts of all your knowledge, so everyone can access it and take his own conclusions. Just a suggestion : an exhaustive CAVEAT list on homepage, disclaimers and a clear indication of the possible consequences that can arise , from loss of data to destruction of the drive to injury to everything else.

On the contrary BlackST. It is you that are short and rude to newbie questions pointing to their lack of inteligence with references to the admin to close thread. How dare you to sugest somebodys elses thread be closed for any reason. You certainly strole down the beach with outstreached arms still expecting to part the seas. Well it aint going to happen, so why dont you get real. Our posts arnt going anywhere just as we cant talk sence into you and have to put up with your posts, as pompas as they are. And you have been this way before I showed up. Other things get mentioned, but the only offtopic subject that matters is your rude and useless coments when people simply want appropriate answers to their guestions. But I am done talking to you. If you want an all pro board, you leave and you go make one. I am not going to leave and make one for you. I am not saying I am happy about how it is here, but just as it is also very adversarial on the HVAC forum with "pros" ticked people blab secrets to AC repair, good tips and information still leaks out.

Now, not everybody here has a God complex, but things would be alot nicer if it wernt the "pros" and "the newbies". Who ever started that terminology really complicated a good forum, and I am not going to search to figure out who it was. It went to somebodys head, and now chatting is a butt kissing and brown nosing contests to gain favor so more questions are answered.

On the kitcar forum, we dont have this problem. Everybody talks to everybody else like men, and nobody disses nobody else. Its a cool place, even if you can only dream about building a car. There are proprietery chassis plans that everybody wants. Those that have them get asked and politely decline. Sometimes, the asking is more forcefull, and the denial is more clearly stated. Then they move on, being friendly forum members.

But not everything is perfect and we have to take the good with the bad, so Im staying and BlackST can leave and be a "Pro" if he so desires. After all, he should do what makes him the happiest.

And no, I am not an angery person. I dont like disrespect and I say something when I see it. Simple as that.

Hi all,

I hope if I need some help after this post I can still get some from here. I guess? I would be what you guys are calling a newbie, freshman and / or a wanna be. I see both sides of the issue, and maybe this won’t make sense but I am going to try and put what I feel into words anyways. I so bad want to ask questions in this forum, but instead I have just been trying to read as much as possible without asking any questions and while PRAYING I don’t lose or destroy some poor souls personal data. Because I know when I ask that dumb question I might just get hammered by a long time DR Professional who thinks that am just another guy who thinks this is easy and wants a piece of his pie.

I am 39, and worked for a company for twenty years, in the service field specifically the auto service field. I started off cleaning the gutters and dumping the trash and after hard work, long hours and many years I moved up in skills, positions and ability until finally I worked my way to the top of my department. I made it to the Director level, made good money (140,000 a year) and was respected. I consistently was one of the top service dealers in customer satisfaction in the nation, had many long term employees and overall was successful.

During this time I saw the senior / lead / pro’s or master techs treat the trainees’ like crap, they made statements like, “I had to buy these tools, bust my knuckles, work long hours, spent years finding the shortcut to make me more efficient etc”, “I have a family and kids to support, bills to pay, debit to pay off for the tools I purchased!” They were WRONG when they did that! Their attitude is crap and is in poor judgment; yet they were RIGHT! They did pay the price, work hard, break their knuckles, back, knee’s and fingers. Yet I also watch those techs get old and then need the help of the younger guys to lift those engines, hold up the transmission, or setup the new alarms, alignment machines or Nav systems etc. I also watch those older techs get help from their mentors even though they’ll tell you they didn’t. That field is just like the DR Field, there are secrets, shortcuts, knuckle bust’n, late nights, trial and error and a LARGE learning curve. Yet none of you would be able to get to work without those guys fixing cars, and in order to do that they had to work together and teach each other like it or not!

I left because of the abuse of the customers treating me like I was dirt under their shoes, I had the doctors come in and say “If I treated me customers like that, they would be dead” , engineers say “If I built buildings or bridges the way you guys fix cars, they would crumble!” Yet patients die and bridges crumble. Customers couldn’t understand why we couldn’t fix a car that they claim stalled out every day, six times a day! Yet the vehicle never acted up for us even after driving it hundreds of miles over a two week period, how do you replace a part that tests good or isn’t failing? I would tell a customer if it is so easy then why don’t you just fix it and then I can hire you!

I left after twenty years to start my own business in computer repair and now computer repair and hopefully data recovery! I love what I do and over the last year have been trying to start a business, learn a new trade, marketing, accounting, fix customers computers, learn data recovery, spend my retirement money on very expensive hardware (PD3K, DDI and Software, not to mention all the freak’n hard drives and computers you need!” I want to learn, I want to read I am eager, yet show me a book in the store, a GOOD Book I can read, that makes sense. I’ll read it, point me to a www with good information and without someone beating me on the head or treating me like someone who hasn’t paid his dues! Show me some something that starts me off in the begging and not in the middle so I can learn.

Just because I’m new doesn’t mean I am not trying, maybe even trying harder then someone who has been in the business for many years who is lazy and will ask a question before searching the forum! I too have a wife and kids, a house and bills, my family needs to eat. The internet is vast and while you can find information on just about everything you can easily be swallowed up by it too. You can spend countless hours reading incorrect information and while everyone is a professional and their way is the only way. I have been working 18 – 20 hours a day for the last 8 months; rarely see my house, bed or family! I struggle to try and understand that freak’n PC3K, but after two months of working with it, researching for endless hours on the proper way to find a replacement PCB I fixed a drive. I got the right PCB, saved the ROM on both boards, put the donor PCB on the drive, uploaded the firmware from the original drive and got it WORKING!!! I got about 90 of the data, but not all . One partition has got me beat!

Anyways, I know this was long and I know you might be rolling your eyes , but after spending just about all my retirement savings, wasting money on a one week data recovery course (I Won’t mention where), spending almost all day trying to make a living, am I not trying hard enough to warrant some help? What do I have to do, to prove to you that while I haven’t been in the field for 20 years, that I am still a professional? Sometimes attitude is what makes you a Pro! I care, honestly care about my customers, reputation and what people think of me! EVERY ONE of you is right! What makes’ you want to help someone is the conversation and what that conversation has for content. If the person asking the question is not really doing any research then maybe he should go “Pound Sand”! But the real question is, do you know me? You don’t know what I’ve tried or how hard I really have tried, and if that is the case, then maybe I should be asked some more questions; then pointed in a direction prior to just being dished out a trade secret or shortcut that took you years to develop. Yet, you can’t get to know me if I am scared to post a question or make a statement; maybe just maybe there is a way for you to get the answers you need out of me that will or will not prove to you how hard I am working and whether I deserve the right help or not!

I will make this last statement then let you tear me up if needed. I promise you, I have been reading this forum and others for months and I promise unless I honestly can’t find the answer I won’t ask you. I haven’t as of yet, but when I do, how do you know that I have been doing my research, looking out on the net? It may not appear that I have been, yet on the other hand maybe I just spent the last 4 nights reading the wrong info or researching the wrong site because I didn’t know I shouldn’t be; or maybe it was because someone just blew me off with the usual “Go do your research on the net, Google has your answers go find it!” The problems is, I just might be reading the wrong information and just not know it, hence I cannot fix a drive for DR, which in turns leads to a dumb question and therefore makes me look like an idiot which you don’t want to help!

I have so many questions, I wish I had someone I could go to like others come to me!

Am I banned now?

Tom

Tom,

Way to much energy has been spent thus far on labels like newbie and pro. People are taking it way too personally!

This is how I divide the world of DR relative to this forum:

1. Just passing by - Sir, can you help me fix my drive?

2. The Dabbler - I'm interested in data recovery, and want to play - maybe make $$ some day

3. Pro - Have invested in specialized hardware (e.g. PC3000) and intend to make a
living from it

4. Seasoned - Has spent a lot of time doing DR and is basically competent

5. Guru - Has a lot of specialized knowledge and experience and has a high success rate

The Guru may or may not have the expensive gear - they and Seasoned are the only categories defined by success rates.

My point is not to divide the world, play God, put anyone down, etc., but simply to point out that each group has very different needs and capabilities; asks different kinds of questions; has different expectations of the answers, etc.

Tom, IMHO the internet is a very different place from the repair facility. In the latter you get to meet your clients and decide the best way to help them or even if it is better to send them down the street. Here we are all strangers and we really have no way to know the "customer."

What we say on these forums becomes a more-or-less perpetual record. When you explain to your client how the brakes wore out the rotors, it is a personal message that is not share with the entire world. Because of this feature of the internet, many people are justified in being reserved in what they say.

Like you, I spend long days and nights working with the PC3000; making custom tooling; documenting and organizing; etc. etc. There are a lot of others on this forum in the same boat. Be aware that there are probably more who have no clue what a PC3000 is . . .

My advice to you? Cultivate some off-line relationships with people using PM & e-mails. You're much more likely to get (or give) that one-on-one "customer service" that you're used to.

Jon

_________________
http://www.datasaversllc.com

Wow, there you go. A post strait from the heart, full of valid points that deserve to be voiced. I see nothing at all that warrants being banned. And being your first post, let me be the first to say welcome to the forum, Tom.

Your tale is of life in the auto repair business. But these attitudes are everywhere. It has much less to do with teaching than it is about people whose heads swelled up. It is all about prejudices in society. If you are black, or poor, or simply not a member of the "in" group, you are treated differently. The one place where these attitudes are absent is in the military. They dont put up with it there and so everybody is a soldier. When you want to learn, they make it happpen. If somebody else thinks you dont deserve to learn, then it stops when you tell his supervisor. Even gays are now accepted after passing laws, because a man is a man and you need to be able to depend on them all to watch your back. You may not know who they are, but they are a soldier, and thats all that counts.

But the internet IS a very different place. Unlike in person or on the phone, you cant tell if a person is black, or dumb, or poor. So right off the bat, you get treated more like a human being. That is, unless we start inventing new internet prejudices like "pros" and "newbies". I say throw that crap out. Its nothing but trouble and there is no legitamate place for it. We got enough problems in the real world with the mess prejudice has caused. But being a human being doesn't mean you have to give up that which you cherish. If you want to keep secrets, then keep them. There is nothing wrong with that. Just dont be surprized if your secrets leak out, because others also know the secrets and the internet is very bad at keeping secrets. Its turning out to be an unstoppable fact of life, no mater what anybody thinks or feels about it. Since its so difficult, I am only going to keep one secret under wraps so maybe I will be successfull at it. I am keeping my naked pictures a secret. God help mankind if they ever get out...

Another instance of that familiar game of pass-n-catch. One passes the ball and soon the ball gets caught by the passer himself on the other side, which he quickly returns. Wow....

I love table tennis.......

Don't know why, but I am missing Dmitriy very badly.........

_________________
I just hate spammers...It was a Spammer, who ruined my life!

Ditto.

BlackST

I am not saying you’re wrong or right, maybe the forum needs to be split into those groups, many people may accept that. I especially think it's good that if while you may not share your secrets with the newbies (TOTALLY UNDERSTANDABLE) at least your helping the follow DR guy at your level and even one below or above to some extent. There are others who don't even post or for that matter join forums and discussions good, bad or otherwise as so they may keep those secrets in hopes that the DR profession will continue as it is today without being flooded by those that think all should be given and all should be easy.

If in the split of a forum do you really believe that those secrets will stay as soon as a person graduates from the middle class to the seasoned and yet is excited to share his findings with others? Yes if a PM is sent and yet that specific info leaks, well then you’ll know EXACTLLY who did you wrong and told the world in seconds what took you 10 years to figure out. Shame on that guy! I also understand he will no longer receive help, or at least assume so! How would you move to the next level? Is there a “You must successfully answer / help X amount of people in X amount of post’s, and then we’ll let you in.”?

Will I be looked at as “Here is an idiot who bought a PC3K / DDI and doesn’t have a clue and went about it wrong (Which I actually believe I may have done, I believe it was a mistake to buy that 1st, and I am paying a dear price for it too!). There is a long story behind why I bought it, and let’s just say I actually paid dearly twice for that, I was mislead and then basically walked out on! I was left not just holding the bag, but holding a lot more!

Here was something I read months ago that really bothered me. I was looking for some answers on SFC / ZFS / Sans File systems (Proprietary, NetGear SC101) here is the post:

post51560.html?hilit=sc101#p51560

I have to ask why, why the taunt? Could have been said in a much nicer way such as:

“Zed, while I don’t know all the in’s and out’s of how to recover from that file system, I do know for a fact that you can recover that data without it having to go to the big boys with their millions of dollars and reverse engineering or paid usage rights”. “Please go here and read, then come back and see me with your other questions, and I will point you to the next article or collection of data!” You may also PM me so I may ask some more questions of you, because this will take you about 20 hours of reading, some questions being answered and some trial and error.
I think if Zed is a looser he will not do the reading, will not come back and may even get a little pissed that he wasn’t handed the data. But, if he is going to be told to go to the download section or resource section of this site and read up on all the ATA commands which may not help him in this particular case then again why bother. For that particular case, that would not be a good starting point to learn.

If the guy helping determines that Zed is someone looking for a free ride on a data recovery job and who isn’t even in the business or is just trying to recover HIS own lost data at someone else’s expense for free, then maybe, just maybe “Screw the guy”! Now if that is not the case, then my God don’t tease the freak’n guy with the “I know something you don’t know” mentality! It came off to me as (and yes this is MY opinion) the guy wanted to brag about how he can maybe do something others can’t. At this point, just don’t post a reply or make a statement, let it ride.

I have a client with this sad storage system, not really a NAS more like a SANS I guess, but point being the lady has no money perse, the economy is crap and I want to help, what I charge to do that is my business correct? I have her drives and box. I have read for countless hours on the NetGear support forum with no answers, no one helping and watched a large company piss off it's customers with no real support especially on the very difficult ones. I don't mean an hour either, I mean numerous nights of many hours. I did the clean install of windows, tested the Z recovery exe, know that Daemon tools might just screw up the drivers for the SC101 etc. I know that they partnered with some other companies and that Novell or Susie Linux Enterprise Server Edition may or may not read that file system but I kept on reading and trying; then I hit this thread here and went O-shit, this is what I get to look forward to? I still have her drives from back in April, lol. I am at a loss and would love to be pointed in a direction to learn and be successful.

Again if you want me to learn and learn right, put together a starting point, of good basic knowledge for me to read. Example:

1. Start by reading this basic info here
2. Then when done and truly understand it, then go here
3. Read this info on hex editors
4. After that buy Brian Carriers Book on File Systems (Read chapter X)
5. Now it’s time for basic hardware, so go here learn the parts and what they do
6. Go here now and learn these commands etc
7. Go here for this type of electrical testing

Heck I dunno if I am even making sense, I guess I am just frustrated, I don't have 300 drives sitting here to practice with and years to do it, nor do my customers have years or months to wait; I do NOT want you to open up my head and dump your 20 years of knowledge in it for free, thats not a reasonsable request. Again I want to learn, but at the same time have to eat and sleep and fix other types of computer issues to try and survive which doesn’t leave me 15 hours a day to just read and test and play. I am the type of guy who would gladly work 3 or 4 hours a night for someone for free to learn. I have paid my dues in life and will always being paying dues, we all will! Point me to the secret Data Recovery user group in my area that meets every X day and I will join and learn and help. Serious, where do they meet?